How do these changes fix the issues with Paladin?

[Shurrikhan]

Shield Swipe spam currently is a DPS loss. If A) Goring Blade is already on your target and B) You don't need threat (Halone) you should be using C) Royal Authority as it's higher average potency to complete a combo. If a boss is about to change phase with no chance of keeping your combo going (A1S, A3S only) you might see a slight gain by using a Shield Swipe before they go away, but only if your next move would have been a Fast Blade.

So basically never.

At a 2.5s GCD, you have the option of reapplying GB's DoT 1.5 seconds early or 1 second late (SS once). [Take your pick.]
At a 2.4s GCD you have the option of replacing it 2.4 seconds early, or 0 seconds late (SS once). [Pick is obvious.]
I'll admit, I've got a lot more SS than I want right now, but for me Swiping once per GB is a definite dps increase.

[Echelon]

I mean when Poping Bulwark you have a chance to spam SS with 210 potency for the next 15 sec without priming something. I'm just trying to see how its a DPS loss by doing that. Of course it wont be possible to do that after 3.1.

[Kyne_Lyons]

I mean when Poping Bulwark you have a chance to spam SS with 210 potency for the next 15 sec without priming something. I'm just trying to see how its a DPS loss by doing that. Of course it wont be possible to do that after 3.1.

Because the average potency of almost every combo move Paladin does except for Halone combos is higher than 210. Halone combos are 203.33 average potency for reference.

Goring Blade: 150 + 230 + 540 or (220+320)/3 = 306.667 potency per combo move average.
Royal Authority: 150 + 200 + 340/3 = 230 potency per combo move average.

Using either of these combos averages higher potency-per-button-push than using Shield Swipe spam, which would be just 210.

At a 2.5s GCD, you have the option of reapplying GB's DoT 1.5 seconds early or 1 second late (SS once). [Take your pick.]
At a 2.4s GCD you have the option of replacing it 2.4 seconds early, or 0 seconds late (SS once). [Pick is obvious.]
I'll admit, I've got a lot more SS than I want right now, but for me Swiping once per GB is a definite dps increase.

Clipping DoTs is not necessarily a strict DPS loss, and in the case of Goring Blade it's still better to just re-apply it and get straight back to Royal Authority combos. If you clip early and only get 7 ticks of the Goring Blade:

150 + 230 + 500 or (220+280)/3= 293.33 potency per combo move average, which would then send you back into the 230 potency average Royal Authority combos.

To compound this, let's assume that using Shield Swipe allowed you to extend uptime on Goring Blade with 100% precision, you're adding a 210 potency move to the Goring Blade combo that reduces it's overall effective potency versus clipping.

150 + 230 + 210 + 540 (220+ 320)/4= 282.5 potency per combo move on average.

That's why the only way it's a DPS increase is if your next move will be less than 210 potency and you'll lose your combo due to the boss becoming untargettable, a.k.a. Fast Blade.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

I know this isn't a thread I started but thank you guys for getting back on topic and also having awesome conversations going on right now. Thumbs up for maturity.

[Kyne_Lyons]

Something I never understood...can anybody explain a good reason why the damage on Spirits Within scales with your current HP? The damage difference between missing even a few of your HP and being at full HP is really drastic making it least effective while you're Main Tanking, and it's an OGCD move that will generally never hit for 300 potency since holding it and hoping to get healed for full is a DPS loss regardless. I get that it's part of how the ability worked in 1.0, and yes it's a free move, but honestly it seems more like a relic of an outdated system than some kind of dynamic game design. It just seems like a really obvious target if the developers want to help address Paladin DPS, among other areas.

[Isius]

Something I never understood...can anybody explain a good reason why the damage on Spirits Within scales with your current HP? The damage difference between missing even a few of your HP and being at full HP is really drastic making it least effective while you're Main Tanking, and it's an OGCD move that will generally never hit for 300 potency since holding it and hoping to get healed for full is a DPS loss regardless. I get that it's part of how the ability worked in 1.0, and yes it's a free move, but honestly it seems more like a relic of an outdated system than some kind of dynamic game design. It just seems like a really obvious target if the developers want to help address Paladin DPS, among other areas.

Personally it feels like the devs looked at Spirits Within, then looks at Pld, and gives them the bird with a big, happy grin, or that is how I imagine it. lol But really this skill with it's weird condition attacted to it feels really wrong for a tank, meant to idk tank dmg. -_-

[Sapphidia]

I think the design of Spirits Within was actually an attempt to make a damage skill somehow scale off tankiness and Max Vitality. The less damage you take, and the bigger health pool you have, the higher chance that you'll be on a higher percentage of health when you use it.

I'm sure that's the case at least. Either that, or they sort of though "let's give them a DPS skill for use when offtanking but stays primarily for a silence when tanking". I think they might have just misunderstood just how much people want to use a 300 potency ogcd attack.

[Judge_Xero]

Probably right Sapphidia, since SW was a leftover skill from 1.0 where people stacked VIT and +Enmity stats.
1.0 was both hard to stay alive and keep enmity in.

[Dhex]

Dungeons as Paladin:
Cooldowns; are long on Sentinel/Hallowed making usage on trash/non-critical situations dubious(?). Sheltron, Bulwark, and Rampart do not offer significant advantages over Dark Knight or Warrior's toolkits.
Shield Bash; Stunning is too costly - period. Monk/Dragoon/Ninja/White Mage can all CC more effectively.
AOE: two tools; Circle of Scorn & Flash - lowest AoE Damage output & Threat.
Shield Swipe; Currently useful to cycle through targets and Pacify - will no longer be useful in large group situations post-3.1

Hallowed Ground is the only thing - might make things easier with AST/SCH, WHM invalidates HG with Stunlock (Holy) & Benediction.

Raids as Paladin:
Cooldowns; Bulwark & Sheltron only useful in A2S or on AA damage, Hallowed Ground & Sentinel's long CDs makes them critical use only - if you mess up you're unable to recover - "Paladin is the best (???) at mitigation"
Damage; Lowest DPS output in both MT/OT slots - even post-3.1
AOE; Same issues as in dungeons.
Shield Swipe; post-3.1 will actually be used - but only as MT
Enmity; (scales off STR) lowest Enmity gain, requires Ninja to maximize DPS output*
TP; runs out flat at 02:40 & post-3.1 02:55-03:00 depending on procs & enmity rotation requirements.
Block/Sheltron/Bulwark; Parry gain causes Block loss, only Phys., realiably only lowers AA on most procs in current raids, useless as OT
Cover; only effects Phys. damage, cannot be mitigated, has limited range.
Divine Veil; scales off HP (VIT does not fit the meta), does not shield the Paladin, cannot be proc'd with WHM/SCH/AST Ability heals or Clemency
Clemency; Long cast - either lands too late or generates healer enmity via overheal, easily interrupted, MP cost, useful as OT(? DPS Loss)
Spirits Within; scales off current HP (VIT + current HP%) & STR (Primary potency modification Attack Power)... (???)
RoH; STR down - lowers Phys. damage, essentially only useful for AA, enmity component risky use in OT slot (DPS loss)

Offensive CDs: one - Fight or Flight 90s recast

No raid-wide damage buff utilities, no raid-wide debuff utilities. (vs. WAR kit, DRK kit)

The "better mitigation" myth;
Primals; HG lets you cheese one mechanic in Ravana EX.
A1S; Functionally worse than WAR & DRK.
A2S; Functionally on par, lacks utility & DPS compared with WAR or DRK.
A3S; Allows you to cheese a party swipe via HG, a Wash Away with Tempered Will, Stuns on Adds - low DPS or missed CD rotation causes wipes.
A4S; Functionally worse than DRK. Stun is nice? TP issues, DPS issues.

"Sentinel is 10% better than Shadow Wall" but most tank busters are Magical; see DA-D.Mind + Shadow Wall.



I don't think any minor fix will change any of this. TP fixes won't change any of this. Paladin has an ill-functioning toolkit post-3.0, and an arguably worse toolkit post-3.1 but slightly more DPS.

Personally I did Paladin main thinking gear might solve it's issues - it is my highest iLv; and it functions worse than both my lower iLv WAR & DRK.

[Ashkendor]

Raids as Paladin:
Cooldowns; Bulwark & Sheltron only useful in A2S or on AA damage, Hallowed Ground & Sentinel's long CDs makes them critical use only - if you mess up you're unable to recover - "Paladin is the best (???) at mitigation"

I pop Bulwark in A1S if I get Prey. I barely need heals at all from it.

Personally I did Paladin main thinking gear might solve it's issues - it is my highest iLv; and it functions worse than both my lower iLv WAR & DRK.

Yep... My PLD at i201 is arguably worse than my DRK at i193. :/