How do these changes fix the issues with Paladin?

[Suhr]

These Paladin changes are horrible.

Even if raid and fight design changes in the future, DRK and WAR will still bring better DPS, utility, and good enough mitigation for every fight.

[Kyne_Lyons]

I'll post it here too, the changes to Shield Swipe should have been the beginning of the list of adjustments, not essentially the end of them. The people on this forum are throwing out ridiculous figures for the relative DPS adjustment that are just totally detached from reality. 5%? 7%? 9%? Really guys? Look up my A1S kill this last week on FFLogs and Reprisal on A1S, which was pushed every time it came up, on a boss with a physical auto-attack uptime of 100% every time they're on screen yielded 2.35% of my damage done. That's it. Shield Swipe in 3.1 used perfectly on cooldown, with a 0ms lapse between uses, is an increase over Reprisal of 90 potency. That's a nice, rounded 30% increase over Reprisal. Factor that into Reprisal's damage and you end up at just over 3%.

This is roughly a 3% damage increase, by the numbers. Stop making shit up.

EDIT: I should also note, that a 3% increase, ONLY while main tanking, does nothing to solve the problems the job faces. It's something, but the job is still fundamentally broken in the current meta. With the changes to Limit Break being role-based, and not job-based, there is now zero argument against running a 2-Warrior setup. Anything else is just worse.

[Aethaeryn]

then keep promoting that rook auto-turret of yours

Cute. :P I switched to back to PLD about a month ago, though. I was main PLD back when t5 was still relevant content.

Oh, it will be.

The TP decrease on GB drops the TP drain to 110 meaning that Paladins will last about 9% longer before they run out of TP.

That means we'll last 3 minutes instead of 2:45 on stationary targets that have no downtime. Super exciting? A DRK not using grit lasts about 3:30 and warrior lasts until its hands fall off. I don't know how that translates to A3S/A4S since my static imploded like most did, but obviously you'll last longer on fights where you have some downtime even without the change.

[Synestra]

With the changes to Limit Break being role-based, and not job-based, there is no zero argument against running a 2-Warrior setup.

This was propably most biggest thing in patch notes when it comes to battle content, with this change double warrior will be the way to go. I still kinda hope that it was mis translated as it seems to brake things even more, lucily i only need one more level for my warrior so if this LB thing ends to be true then i can pretty much bench both PLD/DRK and roll for WAR(not to mention double war offers easier way to maintain 100% uptime on both debuffs and it allows both do even more DPS as they can BB combo moar).

[Freyyy]

With the changes to Limit Break being role-based, and not job-based, there is now zero argument against running a 2-Warrior setup. Anything else is just worse.

No. DRK has higher MT DPS than WAR. It's well known now. If you take a WAR over a DRK as a MT you're gimping your groups DPS. Sometimes, a MT DRK out of Grit will outDPS a WAR in Deliverance (especially in fights like A3S with a lot of parry-able stuff). DRK also allows to not run a MNK without losing the INT debuff. There is zero reason to replace it by another WAR considering that your OT WAR already gives the Storm's debuffs. The MT WAR does not add anything to the party.

(not to mention double war offers easier way to maintain 100% uptime on both debuffs and it allows both do even more DPS as they can BB combo moar).

This is also false. WARs have to keep Maim and Fracture up while using Fell Cleave, so they pretty much have to use a Maim combo every other combo most of the time. And if you say something like "this WAR is in charge of Path, the other one is in charge of eye" then it's even worse because the WAR using Path will lose the DPS that the other WAR will gain by never using it. Don't forget also that Path doesn't need near 100% uptime, it just needs to be up here and there, and in A4S it does nothing. Having 2 WARs instead of DRK/WAR is essentially useless and just makes you lose the small but existent utilities of the DRK and its incredibly high MT DPS.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Since shield swiping will likely still require a successful block (reprisal is drk's equivalent with parry and is also an "Ability"), it'll be a small upgrade for a main tank paladin on a boss that uses physical damage. As offtank, it won't do anything. Person that said it was a 70dps increase is assuming you can use it immediately every 15 seconds, but they didn't say it won't require a successful block to trigger it.

10 tp off goring blade is not going to be noticed. The shield bash change is nice for people doing A4S probably?

If this change to Shield Swipe still requires an activator this is a direct downgrade to dps, enmity and utility. As soon as the expansion came out Shield Swipe became useless for anything other than crowd control as its damage and enmity multiplier weren't bumped up high enough to compete with the new skills given to DPS and Healer roles. I started noticing its lackluster performance while leveling and now in A2s I have since been tempted to remove it from my hotbar. Goring Blade and Royal Authority more than made up for trying to use Shield Swipe like it was in 2.X. It's the same case for Fracture as well, Goring Blade pretty much single handedly rendered Fracture worthless on Paladin. Especially since it costs 80 TP as well. Mercy Stroke actually took the place for me since it's free damage and I **might** get some HP back if I somehow time it absolutely perfectly.....Mercy Stroke should have been Sole Survivor all along.

[Freyyy]

If this change to Shield Swipe still requires an activator this is a direct downgrade to dps, enmity and utility.

I think you're not realizing that an oGCD cannot be a DPS loss ? Even if its potency was 1 it would still be an increase compared to what using it provides in 3.0, because it's changing from being on the GCD to being off the GCD, it's basically FREE DAMAGE. What's wrong with you guys not understanding that ? The fact that it requires an activator doesn't change anything and the activator required which is blocking is happening super often with a PLD. Sheltron gives you the possibility to at least get that Shield Swipe every 30 sec, you just need a random block in between these 30sec in order to have it almost on cooldown. That's a fucking good buff to the skill and an actual increase in DPS AND enmity generation for PLD, and it means that it will require less RoH to maintain aggro, thus leading into more DPS gain from having the possibility to use RA more.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

I think you're not realizing that an oGCD cannot be a DPS loss ? Even if its potency was 1 it would still be an increase compared to what using it provides in 3.0, because it's changing from being on the GCD to being off the GCD, it's basically FREE DAMAGE. What's wrong with you guys not understanding that ? The fact that it requires an activator doesn't change anything and the activator required which is blocking is happening super often with a PLD. Sheltron gives you the possibility to at least get that Shield Swipe every 30 sec, you just need a random block in between these 30sec in order to have it almost on cooldown. That's a fucking good buff to the skill and an actual increase in DPS AND enmity generation for PLD, and it means that it will require less RoH to maintain aggro, thus leading into more DPS gain from having the possibility to use RA more.

'I'll post it here too, the changes to Shield Swipe should have been the beginning of the list of adjustments, not essentially the end of them. The people on this forum are throwing out ridiculous figures for the relative DPS adjustment that are just totally detached from reality. 5%? 7%? 9%? Really guys? Look up my A1S kill this last week on FFLogs and Reprisal on A1S, which was pushed every time it came up, on a boss with a physical auto-attack uptime of 100% every time they're on screen yielded 2.35% of my damage done. That's it. Shield Swipe in 3.1 used perfectly on cooldown, with a 0ms lapse between uses, is an increase over Reprisal of 90 potency. That's a nice, rounded 30% increase over Reprisal. Factor that into Reprisal's damage and you end up at just over 3%.

This is roughly a 3% damage increase, by the numbers. Stop making shit up.

EDIT: I should also note, that's a 3% increase, ONLY while main tanking, does nothing to solve the problems the job faces. It's something, but the job is still fundamentally broken in the current meta.' ---Kyne Lyons

I'm inclined to agree with him in that this is in no way as great a change as people are making it out to be and has actually changed the job for the worst. This is not enough from them to warrant this kind of praise in the slightest. You only focused on the DPS part of my statement as well....DPS certainly is an issue, but it's not the only issue Paladins face with having something like this changed. Pacification in dungeons was a good thing when you noticed your healer somewhat struggling to heal you, and that's gone now since it's a 15 second recast time. We've been waiting for over 4 months and THIS is the best they can do????? I'm growing increasingly tired of them forcing EITHER Dark Knight or Paladin to be main tank all the time every time. People should have at least some choice.

[Freyyy]

snip

I never said that it was a huge DPS increase, it's just a huge buff for the skill itself, and I never said that PLD didn't need any more changes. Yeah, its DPS will still be shite compared to the other tanks even after this change, but it will be LESS shite. It's an increase. What you were basically stating is that it was a loss, which is false. I also never said that PLD only needed tweaks on the DPS side of things. I just pointed out the mistake you made about judging the change to Shield Swipe as a DPS and enmity loss since it's obviously an increase in both domains.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

I never said that it was a huge DPS increase, it's just a huge buff for the skill itself, and I never said that PLD didn't need any more changes. Yeah, its DPS will still be shite compared to the other tanks even after this change, but it will be LESS shite. It's an increase. What you were basically stating is that it was a loss, which is false. I also never said that PLD only needed tweaks on the DPS side of things. I just pointed out the mistake you made about judging the change to Shield Swipe as a DPS and enmity loss since it's obviously an increase in both domains.

I'm not willing to be as easily pleased as some people. This isn't good enough to settle down and forget Paladins being mocked since 2.1 in increasing frequency meanwhile the company doesn't give a shit to fix things for all jobs yet has the time to damned near perfect 3-4 of them. It's inexcusable and "slightly better" isn't slightly better to me. I'll admit that some of my statements are slightly erroneous but just saying 'hey it's slightly less than dog shit now' isn't something that should even be uttered from people's mouths.