Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[Nihility]

You can kind of gauge how OP any alterations to WT would be, though.
The case of WT as a fifth hit
As it is, DRG burns 70+60+60+60 for its combos (FT/CT+4). In the specific case of FT combo, with a 2.41s GCD, that's 1000 potency every 9.64 seconds, at a net cost of 160TP (250 TP spent, minus 90 TP regained naturally). Adding a fifth hit at 60 TP makes this theoretical WT combo 1290 potency (assuming nothing else changes) every 12.05 seconds, at a net cost of 190TP (310 TP spent, minus 120 natural regain). It makes DRG hugely more TP efficient to make WT a fifth hit on the combo, in addition to wrecking DRG's debuff rotation with disembowel/CT/phlebotemize due to the extra GCDs on both combos. Increasing WT's TP cost to compensate would just make it useless or get dumped when you start running low on TP, wrecking the timing on BOD/geirskogul.
Additionally, if WT was the only way to get BOD time extensions, it would be horrible to maintain BOD (because it adds 15 and it takes 12 to get there); if F&C and WT extended it, it would be trivial to maintain and you'd only be worrying about geirskogul's CD. That's another massive DPS buff (or loss, depending how you want WT to work).

The case of WT as an oGCD
Making WT an off-CD jump-style attack instead is even more TP efficient, because you get 200-260 potency out of it, depending if BOD buffs its potency like jump/spineshatter. It's another ranged heavy hit that doesn't cost TP, and it's yet another oGCD that needs to be weaved in during an opener. Even if it was a 30s CD like jump, it would make DRG's burst absolutely ridiculous during b4b windows. DRG's threat generation is absolutely out of control as-is, this just guarantees that going through an opener will require ending with elusive jump instead of holding it for later in the fight. You also won't have elusive for the second b4b run, so good luck with whatever threat you've generated in those 90 seconds.

The case of WT as it is
Maintains DRG's TP efficiency as described above, allows BOD to be easily maintained, and adds a small inconvenience to DRGs that don't move around a lot. It's kind of a dead slot as far as skills go, but the alternatives give DRG massive buffs that it doesn't need.

but just as he said. there are so many possibilities
what if it was changed into an alternate jump that shares cooldown with spineshatter dive with a different effect
or made it into a utility jump skill like shukuchi
or a debuff of some sort with low damage
or a buff your next attack sort of deal, they could even have one that invokes a global cooldown that's only useful for buffing damage during travel time
or a lowish-potency skill with a cooldown that gives blood of the dragon time that is just there as a backup in case something screws up and your about to lose it
or an aoe that chains with doomspike for a real aoe combo
or any of a million other things it could be other than claw and fang part 2

[fm_fenrir]

what if it was changed into an alternate jump that shares cooldown with spineshatter dive with a different effect

A closer that doesn't give diminishing returns that the tank has to worry about? Net improvement, never use spineshatter again unless you direly need the second stun.

or made it into a utility jump skill like shukuchi

DRG already has two gap closers on separate CDs, making it the most mobile DPS in running fights. You can use elusive as a third in a pinch, but it's slightly less targeted. Adding a fourth mobility skill?

or a debuff of some sort with low damage

You already have CT as the highest potency skill in the game, and Phlebotomize is super strong, too. You also have extremely strong debuff utility in Disembowel. What would this do besides sit next to Feint on the bench?

or a buff your next attack sort of deal, they could even have one that invokes a global cooldown that's only useful for buffing damage during travel time

This one I could get behind, but it would have to break combos or you'd just use it to close b4b life surged FT for 6k damage. If it broke combos, though, it wouldn't be terribly useful except maybe buffing a jump or DFD.

or a lowish-potency skill with a cooldown that gives blood of the dragon time that is just there as a backup in case something screws up and your about to lose it

Managing BOD is pretty much the only difficult thing DRG has to worry about these days. One whole buff, that you can refresh just by doing your regular rotations. Losing BOD is almost always a choice of front-loading damage with Geirskogul, not "oh no I walked away from the mob for too long", in which case you'd Geirskogul to clear BOD anyway.

or an aoe that chains with doomspike for a real aoe combo

I love doomspike, it will forever be slot 5 on my hotbar because it's so damn useful for trash pulls. However, it's also 160 potency in a larger column than overpower--what would the combo be? 180 potency? 200 potency? Why wouldn't you want Doomspike->this thing to annihilate trash pulls and obviate NIN/MNK forever? Add BOD and Geirskogul for even more DPS on large pulls, the one thing DRG is kind of terrible at.

or any of a million other things it could be other than claw and fang part 2

I would suggest giving it additional enmity and branching out with FT/CT so you could legitimately hold threat if you need to be OT for whatever reason, but that's really just a suggestion for me more than a useful one. So many experts where the MT... Doesn't. /sigh

edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't specifically love WT as it is, but like I said before, DRG is extremely strong and pretty much any changes will either make it super OP or the alternative will be even more useless. I'm not trying to put you guys down, just pointing out where balance would break if you made these changes.

[Aomine1992]

DRG is fine the only problem I have is Geriskulgol that skill makes me mad, it's like hey here is a great aoe that doesn't demolish your TP or have a hour long cd (looks at dragon fly dive)....but takes away from BOTD, as slow as DRGs attk you can do it like once every 2-3 full tier 4 combos...It would be better with taking 5secs always but 10 is just horrible cause you can barely keep it at 30secs and you can do a full combo in about 7-8secs depending on speed....sigh....rant over

[JackFross]

When I say this I am not approaching from a "I enjoy the mechanic" standpoint at all btw
Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

This is a relatively fair form of criticism, I'll give you that. Objectively, it introduces an additional way to lower your dps by performing the class incorrectly without any notable bonus for performing properly outside of "I did the correct amount of damage."

However, that doesn't detract from the much more valid arguments which speak in favor of the skill. The introduction of this dynamic element to the most static melee dps class is a genius move on the part of the game developers. It's not a lazy decision - it's a deliberate one. They knew exactly where they wanted Dragoon to be. The problem was that putting us here without increasing the skill gap between good and great players of the class would be absolutely ludicrous.

Hence: Wheeling Thrust.

My main argument against giving Dragoons a "fifth" skill (since we already get 5...) is that we're ALREADY one of the highest DPS classes in the game AND we bring Battle Litany to the field, which is a huge gain for the party, believe it or not. If you gave us something else, it's gonna fall into one of these categories:
1. Messes with the current *beautiful* rotation, making things wonky and gross.
2. New utility move that makes Dragoons more attractive than they already are (90% of raid groups run one because BL+BRD/MCH buff).
3. New worthless skill like Feint that will *never* be used outside of certain situations which would actually still end up falling under 2 if it's *useful*.
4. New oGCD skill to boost our dps by a marginal amount we don't need to be boosted by while forcing us to squeeze YET ANOTHER skill into the first 24s of the fight.

None of those options are good. I want none of that.

Let me quote myself again, because everyone seems to still be ignoring this point aside from the same people who get it and agree. Yes, there's a plethora of abilities you can give us. The argument is that we either DO NOT WANT them or DO NOT NEED them.

I'd rather have my extra button be used for a skill that makes the class more fun than have it be devoted to something useless or OP.

[Nominous]

I'd rather have my extra button be used for a skill that makes the class more fun than have it be devoted to something useless or OP.

Eh, speak for yourself. In an expansion, having 2 duplicate skills when we're getting a kit extension is kind of less than pleasing. The people who dislike the complications without benefit are right to dislike it, but that's not the worst thing. Once you get past the difficulty, it just seems like you could have really been given something else. And what you don't realize, is that it's not that black and white. It's not like they only make skills in the OP or useless variety. They're smart enough to come up with Enochian, BoTD, Chakra, Dreadwyrm Trance, and more, they most definitely could have come up with something useful for DRG at 58. Did we really need a 15% crit boost? We definitely lived without it, but now that we have it, you don't consider it useless or OP. So yes, while we may not 'need' anything, you never feel like you need something until you have it, then you wonder how you lived without it.

Again, this doesn't mean you have to remove WT, or make it a 5th hit, or those weird conclusions other people came to.

[Dante_V]

I still like the skill. The developers did an excellent job implementing it and designing it.

Reading this thread just reminds me why not everyone is a game designer and that most people have no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are and how important they are to the life of this game.

[RiceisNice]

Eh, speak for yourself.

Everyone kinda needs to take this into consideration to be honest. Both sides I mean because thats where it can get messy when you're tryin to convey a message or a point across.

In an expansion, having 2 duplicate skills when we're getting a kit extension is kind of less than pleasing. The people who dislike the complications without benefit are right to dislike it, but that's not the worst thing. Once you get past the difficulty, it just seems like you could have really been given something else.

Again, this can be applied for pretty much any other class, and even then, benefits are attached to it since you need to have it in the first place to be able to learn GS. Even for things like GB and WM. They're terrible when you learn it and when you break it down, all it honestly does is add "complexity" to the class, because the future skills you get are arbitrarily locked behind it (because if it wasn't otherwise, no one would ever use WM/GB for more than the 15 seconds it forces you to, if at all)

It's not like they only make skills in the OP or useless variety. They're smart enough to come up with Enochian, BoTD, Chakra, Dreadwyrm Trance, and more, they most definitely could have come up with something useful for DRG at 58. Did we really need a 15% crit boost? We definitely lived without it, but now that we have it, you don't consider it useless or OP. So yes, while we may not 'need' anything, you never feel like you need something until you have it, then you wonder how you lived without it.

It sort of is black and white when we're talking in reference to DRG the way it is now. Though it's even pointed out, if they had decided to give them another damage skill, buff or some sort of utility, they'd have to be redesigned to factor that when we're looking at their overall performance. DRG as is right now doesn't need anything more to make them more desirable than they are, and at this point if you made them get both WT/FnC at levle 56 with an extra skill at 58, you still end up with the functionally same DRG except adding another skill on top of that alongside with what they are already capable of.

[Nominous]

Reading this thread just reminds me why not everyone is a game designer and that most people have no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are and how important they are to the life of this game.

What a terribly condescending post.


Honestly, none of the people here are game designers, but you don't need to be a game designer to know when something feels off. The same way you don't need to be a doctor to tell someone they're sick. Now obviously, some people just aren't going to be happy with anything, and complain at any sense of difficulty, complexity, depth, or anything not straightforward or free. But if we're talking objectively, Wheeling Thrust still isn't the shining example of good game design and implementation. And it's obvious.

I won't speak for everyone, but no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are? Some people might not, but there's still intelligent people who'd agree that if you're going to give difficulty for something, there should be a benefit for the difficulty. It's basic game design logic. Headshots in FPS games are ridiculously hard to pull off without some skill or practice, but the benefit for this difficulty, is instant kill. Certain combos in fighting games are non-lenient and require great precision as well as execution. The benefit for that, is giving them higher damage, and sometimes better setups. Simple logic. Not to mention, making WT a simple 50/50 doesn't 'balance' the dps increase. It's not that difficult to deal with. BoTD and GK is the risk vs. reward system we got, WT is just... legitimately trying to confuse you with no perceived benefit for doing so. And my belief is, that's not the worst part. The worst part is that we had 5 skills to be given in HW, and one of those spots got wasted by a duplicate. Again, you can have the difficulty, the 50/50, and balance without putting WT at 58 when it could have potentially been other things.

Even looking at examples from our own game, look at SMN. It isn't the greatest DPS now, but look at what it got and how well it all syncs up with their job with NO duplicate skills. They got increased difficulty AND damage through Dreadwyrm Trance (like we got through BoTD), Ruin 3 which is only a DPS increase where it's meant to be used, Tri-Disaster is arguably broken, and has no negative impact on damage, Painflare has uses, and can be a DPS increase, and Deathflare is hilariously powerful. They have very obvious examples of things that are hilariously strong with very little drawback. WAR is another example of this. Deliverance and Fell Cleave? Where's the 'general balance and difficulty floor' there? It does nothing but increase the difficulty a healer has healing them, not their actual ability to play the job.

[Nominous]

It sort of is black and white when we're talking in reference to DRG the way it is now. Though it's even pointed out, if they had decided to give them another damage skill, buff or some sort of utility, they'd have to be redesigned to factor that when we're looking at their overall performance. DRG as is right now doesn't need anything more to make them more desirable than they are, and at this point if you made them get both WT/FnC at levle 56 with an extra skill at 58, you still end up with the functionally same DRG except adding another skill on top of that alongside with what they are already capable of.

Like I said, you can't perceive everything you need until you have it. Some things are more obvious than others. Like the fact that MNK could definitely use more TP sustain. That was something that was obvious that they needed. DRG didn't really have that. We had great TP sustain, competitive DPS, and no real perceivable problems that weren't fixed through patches. 60 isn't going to be the max level forever, and you can bet that they'll add even more things we apparently, "Don't need". So really, that's not a strong point to make, that we "Don't need anything". We don't know that .


And again, WT is not a "Gate" to anything like you keep insinuating. WT doesn't open up further possibilities or higher DPS. WM/GB are gates BECAUSE they become DPS increases once you get more skills. Even BoTD is more comparable to them, but definitely not WT. The best comparison to WT is probably Blizz 4 and Fire 4. Both have the same potency, require correct management (extra difficulty) but both have separate effects, benefits and detriments.

[RiceisNice]

But if we're talking objectively, Wheeling Thrust still isn't the shining example of good game design and implementation. And it's obvious.

Objectively they could have done it better (which can be said for other jobs too, not just DRG), but the fact remains that WT still serves it's purpose in adding another check to differentiate a mediocre DRG from a good one.

I won't speak for everyone..

Then stop doing so, especially when some posts are directed to general people and not you specifically. Espesically when people want to add more things to the current state of DRG and not understand why they don't need to be better than the way they are now.

... still intelligent people who'd agree that if you're going to give difficulty for something, there should be a benefit for the difficulty. Simple logic. Not to mention, making WT a simple 50/50 doesn't 'balance' the dps increase.

Again doesn't apply to just DRG. BRD and MCH get WM/GB that acts as a damage loss in a normal circumstance until they get more abilties added to it. The new abilties locked behind WM/GB are in the same sense as GS being locked behind WT since it all comes together under a common mechanic (specifically BotD).

The worst part is that we had 5 skills to be given in HW, and one of those spots got wasted by a duplicate. Again, you can have the difficulty, the 50/50, and balance without putting WT at 58 when it could have potentially been other things.

DRG is not unique in this case so I don't get why it's such a big problem for them, especially when there are also skills that are flat out wasted because it serves no practical use and actively detriments some of the jobs for trying to use it. Yes it can be a better thing, but at this point and with the current state of DRG, it really feels like this is a problem only because you don't have an extra skill that possibly isn't needed to begin with. when every other job has 5 skills (or effectively 4)

but look at what it got and how well it all syncs up with their job with NO duplicate skills.

If you really want to bring up other jobs, some have it far worse than DRG where their playstyle has not changed at all, being broken at some points and hell, two different jobs that have a lvl 52 skill that is functionally the same in every aspect. At this point I'm really tempted to say "get over it" if duplicated skills is a problem and bring up other jobs in comparison,

They have very obvious examples of things that are hilariously strong with very little drawback. Where's the 'general balance and difficulty floor' there? It does nothing but increase the difficulty a healer has healing them, not their actual ability to play the job.

Difficulty is subjective, as well as what people find to be fun. You have people who like DRG the way it plays now with WT/FnC's interaction with BotD. I actually prefer MCH even though argubily a good wildfire is harder to pull off than a buffed-barrage on BRD. Heck you have people that are actively preferring BLM over SMN despite enochian busting their stones. This honestly doesn't have much relevance to bring up in comparison, but considering that it;s a new expansion, you sorta need to add something new to evolve the jobs from their 2.0 counterpart. Difficulty is to the player's expectations and preference.

You're bringing up so many perspectives I'm not even sure what you want right now. Do you want an extra skill on DRG? Do you want it to be "easier" on the same level of SMN/WAR because the idea of skill flooring is poorly executed?

Like I said, you can't perceive everything you need until you have it. Some things are more obvious than others. Like the fact that MNK could definitely use more TP sustain. That was something that was obvious that they needed. DRG didn't really have that.

Then please stop perceiving WT by itself, but rather with everything at level 60.

Don't need". So really, that's not a strong point to make, that we "Don't need anything". We don't know that .

You don't need anything in the current state of the game. You don't especially need more dps, mobility, survivability or utility compared to other melees because quite frankly DRG has it pretty well in in all of those areas compared to NIN and MNK.

And again, WT is not a "Gate" to anything like you keep insinuating. WT doesn't open up further possibilities or higher DPS. WM/GB are gates BECAUSE they become DPS increases once you get more skills.

WT opens up GS, unless you're going to tell me that you learn GS without ever learning WT. WM/GB are gates because the skills are locked behind learning and using said ability.