Deliverance rant

[Whiteroom]

Being a bad tank does not equate to a bad player, please don't make that assumption. I know many people who are great at another role(caster, healer, etc) and not good at tanking and vice versa. There are many people trying out tanks now that just aren't familiar with how the class plays. Help those that are learning if they ask and be patient. If it doesn't workout you can make a choice, just have fun.

......Woosh

[Hayward]

Honestly, this is what happens when game developers pander to gamers who think tactics are breath mints. You get tanks who don't know the fundamentals of the role (or ignore them completely when told of them) and think they're something they're not. I appreciate doing decent damage to maintain an enemy's attention but I know that my primary duty as a tank is to keep enemies looking at me. In the case of Warrior, that means using Defiance first and foremost and using Deliverance when I know no one else has a chance of stealing hate from me.

Edit: As an aside, anyone who says more than 10% (at the most) of DPS players can't out-damage a tank really needs to have a seat. Or meet some actual DPS'ers rather than inventing scarecrows for such absurd arguments.

[Tyrial]

When i war in dungeons i only go into deliverance for triple-cleave, which you actually pop a fair few defensive cds for. After the double or triple cleave is done i'm back in defiance. Havent had a problem yet. I start and end each pull in defiance 99% of the time.

Only time you should be using Fell Cleave is on a single mob, if there are two or more up Decimate always wins. The only time Defiance is needed is if you've got a dumb healer or you're not up to par with your gear and can't handle the incoming damage. Not throwing you under the bus or saying you're bad, but if you're familiar with WAR then you're just gimping yourself by sitting in Defiance so much. It literally does nothing meaningful for us defensively aside from giving access to Inner Beast and a small HP bonus (which is meaningless once you're starting to take damage).

Honestly, this is what happens when game developers pander to gamers who think tactics are breath mints. You get tanks who don't know the fundamentals of the role (or ignore them completely when told of them) and think they're something they're not. I appreciate doing decent damage to maintain an enemy's attention but I know that my primary duty as a tank is to keep enemies looking at me. In the case of Warrior, that means using Defiance first and foremost and using Deliverance when I know no one else has a chance of stealing hate from me.

Edit: As an aside, anyone who says more than 10% (at the most) of DPS players can't out-damage a tank really needs to have a seat. Or meet some actual DPS'ers rather than inventing scarecrows for such absurd arguments.

The vast majority of the DPS you run into in a DF Expert aren't going to pull more DPS than a WAR who understands the job and gears appropriately. Maybe it's just my data center...I don't know. As for your Defiance comment...see above.

[Isius]

TBH I much preferred the time when aggressive tanking was not required and was kind of a niche. I loved when back in 2.5x while waiting for the expac, I joined T10-11 farm parties in PF and people running parsers were amazed at me sustaining over 420-450 DPS while tanking T11 out of Defiance and no healer complaints, while most tanks were struggling to do more than 240 DPS. That's how niche it was. Now, a tank doing high DPS in raid content is, on top of being a common thing, actually required. And then baddies trying to mimic the good raiding tanks are being destroyed by trash mobs. Sad.

I think I rather have high dps tanking to have remained a niche thing for the game. I wore full slaying or a mix of slaying/fending accessories back in 2.x, because I loved the idea of being a tank, and being able to dps more after I have gotten a firm understanding of a encounter. It was like a bonus for being a good player. But now it's just mandatory in Savage, and it personally kills some of the vibe/feeling I used to have for it, but that it just me.

[Isius]

Edit: As an aside, anyone who says more than 10% (at the most) of DPS players can't out-damage a tank really needs to have a seat. Or meet some actual DPS'ers rather than inventing scarecrows for such absurd arguments.

I out dps most dps during boss fights...as a PLD in DF. Maybe not in trash pulls since PLD just sucks at aoe, but idc I just turtle up, heal myself with Clemancy, and let the healers that do dps have a ball while rarely needing to heal me. A lot of dps in DF don't play thier class correctly basically.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

I think I rather have high dps tanking to have remained a niche thing for the game. I wore full slaying or a mix of slaying/fending accessories back in 2.x, because I loved the idea of being a tank, and being able to dps more after I have gotten a firm understanding of a encounter. It was like a bonus for being a good player. But now it's just mandatory in Savage, and it personally kills some of the vibe/feeling I used to have for it, but that it just me.

People seem to be missing the point of Savage. It is a hardcore raid that is designed to be played to each class/roles limits.

For tanks this means eaking out the most DPS while maintaining hate and buffs/debuffs. To be able to comfortably sit in tank stance and solely focus on mechanics would not be, well, Savage persay.

In a way high tank DPS is still niche in the fact that you will only see Savage raiders (which is actually a surprisingly small amount of players) doing it well.

[Alahra]

People seem to be missing the point of Savage. It is a hardcore raid that is designed to be played to each class/roles limits.

Not so much missing the point as missing the memo: it wasn't communicated well to the NA playerbase that the difficulty level of Coil was going the wayside and that Alexander (Savage) was tuned more like SCOB (Savage) was. Savage is indeed "hardcore," but the NA playerbase was led to believe (outside of perhaps one interview, which was in Japanese, that got posted on Reddit) that Savage was going to be roughly equivalent to the raids in ARR in terms of difficulty, and healer DPS/heavy tank DPS were never required in ARR to the extent that they are in Savage.

Considering that Savage fills the same spot in progression that Coil used to (providing i210 gear and upgrade items for locked tomestone gear), it's not surprising that players see Savage as fairly different from Coil.

[Dhex]

Defiance =/= Grit or Shield Oath

[Kabooa]

The vast majority of the DPS you run into in a DF Expert aren't going to pull more DPS than a WAR who understands the job and gears appropriately. Maybe it's just my data center...I don't know. As for your Defiance comment...see above.

The vast majority of average players aren't going to outperform the minority of really good players.

Who knew.

[Whiteroom]

The vast majority of average players aren't going to outperform the minority of really good players.

Who knew.

Actually, it was Average DPS players vs Tank DPS, so its a little different than what you wrote. Well, more than a little. And it was understands their jobs and gears appropriately, not really good minority. So a little different again.