What they mean by "change the damage calculations of tanks"?

[Ashkendor]

Well, a 400 to 1200 difference isn't stats and gear either sir. So I don't see your point?

Indeed, that is why they should make crafted gear only able to have one main stat.

That's exactly his point. Your example isn't stats/gear linked. It's linked to the skill and/or willingness of the player to actually play their role. He's comparing a tank in full VIT with a tank in full STR and assuming equal skill. You're comparing apples to oranges.

[Dante_V]

I don't think it will be as big of a change as anyone is thinking here. Forum tends to blow things out of proportion a lot. And I think the single main stat to melded gear is silly honestly. All you are going to do is force people away from pentamelds. This means objectively more tanks with straight slaying and less vitality than both vit and pentamelds setups. Essentially to combat this the vit meta will just be applied more strictly, not become less relevant. Single main stat jewelry will just mean more tanks with less hp, and a less interesting gearing setup with less demand on crafting accessories further alienating crafters from end game equip sales.

I highly doubt they will be adding new stats. It's possible they may add damage to vit but may cause issue regarding dps stacking vit and also it really does nothing to effectively change the active meta either way.

[Donjo]

If that's the issue then they could just make it so that the gear from 3.2 will have its VIT value equal to its STR/DEX/INT/MND value.

That's certainly an option! The differences in accessories are so negligible that I doubt anybody would miss 10-20 VIT, and the left side gear is already the same between all physical damage dealers anyway. But then there's still a Tank's natural VIT and Food. They end up having a lot of VIT no matter what, so more would have to be done than just switching the relationship. This, of course, assumes that SE's goal is "change the damage calculations of Tanks while keeping their ability to deal damage the same". They could instead just buff Tank Damage if they wish. People would probably be okay with that :P

Unless str doesn't affect attack power, like it doesn't for bards or healers. That's an obvious problem, I don't think it would be overlooked by the devs. (I think) they are trying to address the disparity between full str and full vit tanks. They will homogenize the stats, likely around their intended 2 tanks = 1 dps, so you don't have some tanks doing 400 dps and others doing 1000. I think they would like to close the gap, instead of 400/1000 bring it closer to say 500/600 or 600/700. Raise the minimum, reduce the maximum; however they choose to do it.

Right. Tanks are the only jobs who are capable of having such a large gap of damage potential between skilled players at the same item level. This is why the Tank Community is the most hostile toward each other for reasons directly related to stats. Whether it's a buff, a nerf, or neither, anything that can help quell the hostility is a good idea.

Tanks already have -20% - 35% damage reduction. If they are changing the stats they should remove the penalty associated to the stances. Otherwise that is a double nerf to damage.

Taking 1 and making it 0.8 is a huge nerf.

Tanks are nowhere near the damage of dedicated DPS, only bad or undergeared DPS are having this issue.

I don't see why "DPS" are doing so low when they have buffs that increase damage and their skills are a lot higher potency with higher base damage to boot. I think the main issue, is lazy+bad DPS.

Unlike DPS, Tanks cannot offord to be lazy or they lose aggression. So they always have to play their best, tanks that do not more or less lose aggro frequently because they try to play lazy or just spam their 1/2/3 aggro.

I think the issue mostly is people want to hide behind passive defense, spam 1-2-3 and watch netflix instead of playing the game.

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Well if that is the case. Some DPS are doing 400 whilst others are doing 1400. We should close the gap and make them do closer to 800/900.

Do you see an issue with this yet? Balance should not be made out of laziness and bad players. That is poor in a design and development standpoint and all that does is make people quit/leave the game.

Changing the stats, by itself, can be a buff. A pretty large buff. This is why it may cross SE's mind to keep them where they currently are. I introduced that scaling number as an example, not as a statement of how it should be.

I never stated that Tanks were dealing damage too close to DPS. I merely stated that if SE feared that they were, they could do X.

And Tanks can absolutely be lazy without losing aggro. In Full VIT. By definition, a lazy player exerts the minimum necessary effort in order to complete a goal. Which means that they maximize efficiency. You're confusing a lack of skill with being lazy.

And for the last bit:

Situation 1: DPS A and B are wearing the gear assigned to their jobs. DPS A does 400 DPS. DPS B does 1000 DPS. This is because DPS B is more skilled than DPS A. If both of them did the same rotation with the same precision they would be nearly equal.

Situation 2: Tank A is in VIT. Tank B is in STR. They both proceed to do the exact same rotation, pressing the exact same buttons at the exact same time with exactly perfect precision. Tank A does 500 DPS. Tank B does 1000 DPS. Skill had no factor in this. Only the wonkiness of Tank Stats did.

Whiskeybravo was referring to Situation 2, not Situation 1. You've massively missed the mark.

It's pretty clear at this point that you severly lack both reading comprehension and general knowledge/experience regarding this game. You ought to just sit down and let the adults talk.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Every class has vit + their own main stat on left side gear (as does tank). All non tank class accessories have their main stat (which effects damage output) + 2 secondary stats. Currently the "tank" accessories have 2 secondary stats and vit. If SE rolled out a new "tank stat" I would assume that tank accessories would follow every other class and have the main stat + 2 secondaries (again, future gear)

Every class needs VIT. As it has no effect on damage done, or really anything other than HP totals, I don't consider it a main stat. SE would likely need to add VIT to left side tank gear to make a new stat work.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

And Tanks can absolutely be lazy without losing aggro. In Full VIT. By definition, a lazy player exerts the minimum necessary effort in order to complete a goal. Which means that they maximize efficiency. You're confusing a lack of skill with being lazy.

Being productive and performing a duty to its fullest is actually a "skill". Being able to produce more results from less by working harder is something I really love but it is something a lot of people seem to disagree with. Also cherry-picking another's phrases and words when they clearly said multiple things is rather annoying.

Situation 2: Tank A is in VIT. Tank B is in STR. They both proceed to do the exact same rotation, pressing the exact same buttons at the exact same time with exactly perfect precision. Tank A does 500 DPS. Tank B does 1000 DPS. Skill had no factor in this. Only the wonkiness of Tank Stats did..

Vitality isn't a "Tank" stat, it simply gives you more health like it does everyone else. It does not reduce your damage in any way. The way this game works is you only need enough health to "not be" one shot so your healers can keep you topped off.

Tank A in VIT pretty much means "Lazy Player." They can clearly see what the two stats do and chose the one because it makes it easier for them. When going STR makes the fight shorter and makes it easier on the entire party.

[Donjo]

Being productive and performing a duty to its fullest is actually a "skill". Being able to produce more results from less by working harder is something I really love but it is something a lot of people seem to disagree with. Also cherry-picking another's phrases and words when they clearly said multiple things is rather annoying.

Vitality isn't a "Tank" stat, it simply gives you more health like it does everyone else. It does not reduce your damage in any way. The way this game works is you only need enough health to "not be" one shot so your healers can keep you topped off.

Tank A in VIT pretty much means "Lazy Player." They can clearly see what the two stats do and chose the one because it makes it easier for them. When going STR makes the fight shorter and makes it easier on the entire party.

God, you're hilarious. It's annoying to cherry pick statements, says the poster who completely misreads everything he sees and gets off on wild tangents that barely have anything to do with the original concept... and then cherry picks statements in their next reply. By the way, I did properly address everything you said to me. You just failed to read it properly again.

I could explain why Vitality is the Tank's Main Stat, or how it's actually safer(ie. easier) for a party if the Tank has more health rather than more strength in 97% of situations, but it would all be lost on you.

Just stop.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

God, you're hilarious. It's annoying to cherry pick statements, says the poster who completely misreads everything he sees and gets off on wild tangents that barely have anything to do with the original concept... and then cherry picks statements in their next reply.

I could explain why Vitality is the Tank's Main Stat, or how it's actually safer(ie. easier) for a party if the Tank has more health rather than more strength in 97% of situations, but it would all be lost on you.

Just stop.

I actually play a healer and tank. I find it much easier to heal a strength tank because the fights are much shorter for one and I find that most strength tanks actually pay attention to fights whilst vitality tanks usually stand in AOEs because they have the health for it.

I don't find a tank more health easier to heal at all because it doesn't make it easier, it doesn't do anything but give you more health. I find them the exact same as a vitality tank because I keep my tanks topped off regardless of their health. So I have no issue with a strength tank.

Having bloated HP just breeds laziness in most of the games content.

So, your choice?

Damage is actually important to tanking because damage improves your overall sustain, if your doing more damage your killing things faster. Unless the "mechanics" as you claim I don't know changed in the past hour I believe that dead monsters can't hurt you.

[Ashkendor]

Also cherry-picking another's phrases and words when they clearly said multiple things is rather annoying.

It's kinda funny to see you whine about this because you do a lot of it.

Vitality isn't a "Tank" stat, it simply gives you more health like it does everyone else. It does not reduce your damage in any way. The way this game works is you only need enough health to "not be" one shot so your healers can keep you topped off.

Tank A in VIT pretty much means "Lazy Player." They can clearly see what the two stats do and chose the one because it makes it easier for them. When going STR makes the fight shorter and makes it easier on the entire party.

You're right about one thing - in FFXIV, VIT does not raise your defenses in any way aside from the HP boost. However, it's notable that in many other games it does. That's why you get many veteran tanks coming in from other games and stacking VIT simply because it's what they've always done. It makes sense, right? I know when I first came to this game, I went on the assumption that a tank is a tank is a tank and stacked VIT because that's what I'd done in the past, not to mention that's what's on the accessories I can roll Need on. That has nothing to do with laziness and everything to do with the fact that our tank design is more than a little counter-intuitive.

In any case, we're not here to discuss player laziness. We're here to discuss what may happen with tank stats going forward.

[whiskeybravo]

Vitality isn't a "Tank" stat, it simply gives you more health like it does everyone else. It does not reduce your damage in any way. The way this game works is you only need enough health to "not be" one shot so your healers can keep you topped off.

Tank A in VIT pretty much means "Lazy Player." They can clearly see what the two stats do and chose the one because it makes it easier for them. When going STR makes the fight shorter and makes it easier on the entire party.

You may not believe Vitality is a tank stat, but SE certainly does, why else would be the only main stat on Fending accessories.

Tank A in VIT does not automatically mean lazy player, or that they are making it harder on the group. I will give you a very real example from just the other night. FC invited me to help with an A1S clear. 5 players are on A4S, there are 2 new people to A1S and myself who was on A3S. Since I'm a drg, the other drg on A4S ran War. We proceeded to wipe I don't know how many times that night, probably 40-50 times in that 2 hours. Why did we wipe? Because the War tank had 13.5k HP, wore full slaying from his drg gear, and the one new healer couldn't keep him alive. He died to everything possible at one point or another, and the 2 people we tried to get clears for didn't get their clear that night.

According to your logic, he wasn't being lazy, he wasn't making it more difficult for us to clear. When in reality I can very well argue that he was being lazy by refusing to put on a few fending accessories to give the healer some breathing room, and he wasn't making it easier on the group by wearing slaying accessories since all that extra damage went to waste laying on the floor.

It's not so black and white.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

why else would be the only main stat on Fending accessories..

Why else does it give us a choice?

Tank A in VIT does not automatically mean lazy player, or that they are making it harder on the group. I will give you a very real example from just the other night. FC invited me to help with an A1S clear. 5 players are on A4S, there are 2 new people to A1S and myself who was on A3S. Since I'm a drg, the other drg on A4S ran War. We proceeded to wipe I don't know how many times that night, probably 40-50 times in that 2 hours. Why did we wipe? Because the War tank had 13.5k HP, wore full slaying from his drg gear, and the one new healer couldn't keep him alive. He died to everything possible at one point or another, and the 2 people we tried to get clears for didn't get their clear that night.

According to your logic, he wasn't being lazy, he wasn't making it more difficult for us to clear. When in reality I can very well argue that he was being lazy by refusing to put on a few fending accessories to give the healer some breathing room, and he wasn't making it easier on the group by wearing slaying accessories.

It's not so black and white.

What if:
Tank wasn't using cooldowns properly.
Healer wasn't healing properly.

So, your mind automaticly goes to they lost because he didn't have the HP? I read that and that .. does not seem to be the case. However, it seems like there was a lot more going on then that.

It seems like one of them simply didn't know how to play their class and weave in their cool-downs correctly.