The Real Problem with Parsers

[rappa]

Snip

Good job Sherlock, this char is my alter and in my second post i omitted some facts.


The point doesn't change anything. Two bad players with zero knowledge about the game, being 50+, kicked another one. I tried to kick the bard because he didn't respond me after a lot of questions.

The fact, parsers would help those players to know how far they are wrong. But Aiselia, trying to justify the unreasonable, being a White Knight against Parsers. Trying to protect the ignorance over knowledge.

All players have theirs playstyle and vision of the game. Being slacker, lazy or ignorant is not acceptable.

One example: You play 1 hour each day and have to cap esoterics. you try to queue as healer to reduce queue time. Then you are pairing with 2 dps with 200+ ilvl. Your first though is -"Nice, will be a smooth run"-. Wrong. One of the dps is spamming the same ability and the other one use 1-2-3 combo without positionals. After 20 mins and a few wipes in the second boss, you try to encourage dps to do their job. They go upset because one of them or both are watching a tv-serie and you are kicked wasting your time.

One solution is play with friends, yeah, right. If i play with my friends, neither of them queue alone. If nobody queue alone, try to do a roulette as dps. Would take long time during off-peak.

One part of the fault is SE, they force to players to git gud but don't put any messure to git gud.

A few weeks ago we needed a replacement because one of our raider had holidays and we wante to clear savage that week. We tried to search one dragoon and we tested in faust. Our ilvl requisite was 200+, neither of the dragoons could pass 1k dps, bad rotations, attacking from the front, attacking one add and dying. A lot of sorrows in our search of an average player.

[Causality]

Funny because im pretty sure the majority would vote for parser.

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If i queu for a lvl 60 dungeon and someone with similar gear is pulling 500dps while i pull 1.4k, ill kick them. i'm here for my eso or drop, not to carry their lazy ass

You're worried about the other person's DPS in a level 60 Dungeon that's 3 manable with a 700DPS in i150s? And you do 1.4K? Somethings wrong here. Obviously the Tank isn't pulling fast enough to tear your eyes off of your parser.

[Aiselia]

The point doesn't change anything. Two bad players with zero knowledge about the game, being 50+, kicked another one. I tried to kick the bard because he didn't respond me after a lot of questions.

Actually, it does change things. You said that you told him that Mind accessories don't do anything and when he said that it was for MP, you told him that Piety gave MP, not Mind. Your screenshot shows none of that. It's logically safe to assume that you didn't tell him Piety gave MP rather than Mind BEFORE your screenshot, as the "Give MP" reason was not said until your screenshot, so you couldn't have responded to that before being told it.


You claim that you were trying to give him information, but your screenshot only shows you responding to it with a failed vote kick attempt and a facepalm. In other words, you were kicked for acting like a jerk to them, not because you were trying to help. That makes you an example of the people who shouldn't have their paws on parsers, because you skipped the "Trying to help someone get better" and went straight for "LOLKICK".

The fact, parsers would help those players to know how far they are wrong.

And I said it before, a parser is not required at all to point out that a Bard should be using Dex because it's their main stat. What is required is the patience to point it out rather than jump to kick.

being a White Knight against Parsers.

Except I'm still not against parsers. I'm against people abusing them, and I think people should prove that they can handle them before asking for them. I also think people should come up with good arguments rather than "This person was wearing gear that was factually incorrect for their class and I tried to kick them instead of help them and got kicked instead". If the facts that none of their left side gear has Mind on it and their weapon has Dex and the game flat out tells you what the stats are used for are not able to convince someone that they should wear Dex accessories over Mind, a DPS number won't.

One example: You play 1 hour each day and have to cap esoterics. you try to queue as healer to reduce queue time. Then you are pairing with 2 dps with 200+ ilvl. Your first though is -"Nice, will be a smooth run"-. Wrong. One of the dps is spamming the same ability and the other one use 1-2-3 combo without positionals. After 20 mins and a few wipes in the second boss, you try to encourage dps to do their job. They go upset because one of them or both are watching a tv-serie and you are kicked wasting your time.

Which a parser won't do anything about. If someone's just spamming the same ability and the other's just doing 1-2-3 and ignoring positionals and both are 200+ ilvl (which means they must have at least one 210 item, which means both must have passed at least some Savage), it's a pretty safe bet that they don't care what DPS they're doing, so shoving a number at them will still get you kicked.

That's why you should come up with real arguments why a parser should be added, like showing where people actually would be helped, rather than pointing out hopeless situations.

[Butcherboy]

At above. And that is why. Until as a community shows yoshi that we can have a parser for our own personal gain and not means to spite everyone else around us is that day we get a parser. Yoshi is not against it, his against the dick heads and I'm to hardcore for you type players. Again I'm not against it I'm for it and I want this as soon as possible, heck whenever we get a live letter for Q and A, I'm asking when r we getting a parser or clicking like about parser being added.

[Jamein]

And I said it before, a parser is not required at all to point out that a Bard should be using Dex because it's their main stat. What is required is the patience to point it out rather than jump to kick.

Having a parser may have pointed out to him that his DPS was absolutely abysmal long before though and made him go look at what was wrong.

Except I'm still not against parsers. I'm against people abusing them, and I think people should prove that they can handle them before asking for them.

Guilty until proven innocent, I like it. Let's all prove we can use a tool for its intended purpose by not being allowed to use/speak of the tool in game because you'll get reported. Seems logical.

I also think people should come up with good arguments rather than "This person was wearing gear that was factually incorrect for their class and I tried to kick them instead of help them and got kicked instead". If the facts that none of their left side gear has Mind on it and their weapon has Dex and the game flat out tells you what the stats are used for are not able to convince someone that they should wear Dex accessories over Mind, a DPS number won't.

Personally I think people need to come up with better counter arguments than 'people are mean' but that's what it always comes down to in these threads. As for the game telling you about stats, yup sure you're correct it does however without a valid way to see/compare your DPS numbers with others for all you know you're doing absolutely fine DPS even with those accessories, until you come across someone else who is doing a boatload more than you, and then you stop and think and say hey hold up, that guy is better than me, lets figure this out or ask him.

Which a parser won't do anything about. If someone's just spamming the same ability and the other's just doing 1-2-3 and ignoring positionals and both are 200+ ilvl (which means they must have at least one 210 item, which means both must have passed at least some Savage), it's a pretty safe bet that they don't care what DPS they're doing, so shoving a number at them will still get you kicked.

The point is, parsers over a period of time and constant use would let you see what you are doing, is your DPS improving? Is someone else absolutely trashing you? If they are it will cause a lot of people to think twice about what they do. I'm not saying EVERYONE will go out and see if the rotation they are using is correct but even if just 1/5 people do that's STILL creating a better community and raising the average skill level in the game. Right now people have NOTHING to go on, they literally don't know what numbers they are pulling so they will assume they are doing just fine which is causing problems in fights with DPS checks.

That's why you should come up with real arguments why a parser should be added, like showing where people actually would be helped, rather than pointing out hopeless situations.

The benefits of people being able to see and compare their DPS is just great, it makes people actually think about what they are doing, not everyone will care to improve but those people who simply think they are doing well, but actually aren't will have something to show them they are seriously behind and would give them a reason to go out and look for some help or ask.

[Aiselia]

Having a parser may have pointed out to him that his DPS was absolutely abysmal long before though and made him go look at what was wrong.

The game flat out states that Piety is for MP, Mind is for healing, and Dex is for increasing damage for Bards.

According to the screenshot of the person's lodestone profile, they have a 60 DRG, which means it's not even their first class.

In the time it took to level a character to 60, they either never bothered to learn what stats actually do or just plain didn't care. Now, given that their lodestone profile screenshot also shows an accessory with a purple gem (Dex, because Amethyst jewelry gives dex) but what appears to be Hard Leather Wristbands (level 17 accessory but has Dex) and an empty ring slot, I'd say that the more likely scenario is that they don't give a damn either way because they didn't even bother equipping a second ring or upgrading their bracelets for 30 levels.

In other words, a parser won't prove anything to them when they haven't even cared enough to fully equip themselves. Period.

Guilty until proven innocent, I like it.

Blame the people in this thread who outright state they want parsers so they can kick people out of their roulette runs for making them take 5-10 minutes longer. Blame the people in this thread who will attack someone's DPS without even ever having grouped with them before because assumptions. Very few of the pro-parser arguers have proven themselves to be mature enough to handle talking about parsers, much less use one and be allowed to call people out on it.

Personally I think people need to come up with better counter arguments than 'people are mean'

Except they don't, because it's a perfectly valid reason.

If you don't want to play with people with low DPS, the game isn't forcing you to. You are perfectly free to create groups for any and everything. Expert roulette and High level roulette even let you go as a fully premade group. Low level and trial roulette may not let you queue as a group, but you don't get anything from there that you couldn't get from running dungeons with a premade group.

Which is why "I want to be able to kick people out of MY roulette runs for wasting MY time" is a terrible argument on the side of parsers. Nobody forces you to run with them. You chose to roll the dice for what you get, you should have to live with it.

People like you wanting to shrug aside valid reasons because you can't argue against them is also why I came up with other reasons, not the least of which is "console limitations", which is allegedly why we didn't even have a TP bar for so long even though it was more objectively useful than knowing what bonus stat you're giving the party.

The point is, parsers over a period of time and constant use would let you see what you are doing

Yes, I know, and that's why I support parsers in a limited scope and am not against them. Which I already said. That you responded to. So you should know that. So you're wasting your time trying to convince me.

That also has nothing to do with people who have clearly cleared at least some Savage Alexander intentionally just mashing whatever because they don't care.

If they are it will cause a lot of people to think twice about what they do.

Or it will cause an increase in harassment reports. Whether they're acted on or not, that's GM time that has to be spent on stuff, which backlogs the GMs and makes what could be more important issues get pushed later, which then annoys the customers who want a fast response but can't get them because the GMs are too busy dealing with reports about people trashing them over their DPS.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

[Merkava]

Except they don't, because it's a perfectly valid reason.

Except that it's not a valid reason at all. You're merely feeding on paranoia and stating things that are simply not true. Are there people who would harass others because of parsers? Yes, definitely but people like that are in the minority and, news flash, idiots exist with or without parsers. There hasn't been a single case of people actually proving that parsers actually make player harassment worse. In fact there are various arguments that show that this just isn't the case.

Most good players that I know, and this has been backed up by other players experience, simply do not care about crappy DPS unless they are in a challenging raid. If you're running a simple dungeon like say... Nevereapp then there is no point in stressing over DPS numbers because it's going to be cleared anyway. If you are in an Extreme encounter or Savage then people have every darn right to complain about underperfoming party members because if they can't take criticism then they should not be in raids at all. Not to even mention that there are far more uses for parsers than simply checking DPS read my previous post for a very small summary of this.

I also redirect you to this excellent post.

All you are saying is, "I'm scared someone out there will be mean to me" or blatant exaggerations like, "everyone will suddenly turn into assholes if parsers are available". So your solution? Keep people as ignorant as possible? Screw the PS4 players who can't parse themselves? Parsers will not fix the problems with the community nor will it worsen it but it sure as hell going to offer some very important tools for players to improve themselves, there are plenty of players out there that THINK they are good when they just simply aren't and have no point of reference, which parsers would offer.

Parsers will do way more good for the community than bad by a very large margin and there is not a single justifiable reason we shouldn't have them. I'm also curious as to what you mean by "limited" parsing because that sure doesn’t seem to make much sense.

[Aiselia]

Except that it's not a valid reason at all.

Then prove it wrong.

You'll have to start by proving that all these people in this thread and others that complain that they have to bite their tongue instead of calling people out on their low DPS because it's specifically against the rules to say you're parsing won't, in fact, call people out on their low DPS if it's suddenly not against the rules to be parsing.

Good luck.

stating things that are simply not true.

Prove it to be wrong.

Are there people who would harass others because of parsers? Yes, definitely

Or it will cause an increase in harassment reports. Whether they're acted on or not, that's GM time that has to be spent on stuff, which backlogs the GMs and makes what could be more important issues get pushed later, which then annoys the customers who want a fast response but can't get them because the GMs are too busy dealing with reports about people trashing them over their DPS.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

Since you seem to think your argument is grounded in truth and evidence, which by the way it's not, prove that the potential for people to get better will objectively outweigh any negatives caused by an increase in harassment reports, including, but not limited to, time spent by GMs on reading and responding to tickets, money spent on extra GM time (or extra GMs if it's a significant increase), increased response times on tickets because of extra tickets, loss of revenue from people banned if they are found to be harassing, and potential loss of revenue from people who get harassed and think that the game is going down the crapper because it's not as fun any more.

Good luck.

Bear in mind that any benefits that a parser will bring are entirely subjective and not proven at all. Whether a player gets better with a parser is up to them, not the parser. People can still not care. A parser is not required to enjoy the game, as many console players enjoy the game and it's impossible for them to parse, and many PC players enjoy the game who do not parse. Since a parser is not required to enjoy the game, all benefits are subjective. So your job is to prove that subjective opinions are worth more than tangible costs in time and money if there is an increase in harassment.

There hasn't been a single case of people actually proving that parsers actually make player harassment worse.

So you're obviously choosing to ignore the multiple people who have flat out said that they totally would call out people on DPS if it wasn't bannable to even mention that they're parsing.

In fact there are various arguments that show that this just isn't the case.

Which are entirely subjective. There are also various arguments that parsing and players trying to enforce some subjective standard does increase harassment. Confirmation bias doesn't make your link automatically true.

Most good players that I know, and this has been backed up by other players experience, simply do not care about crappy DPS unless they are in a challenging raid.

What's your point? Your limited scope is irrelevant, as is it situationally useless as evidence. A lot of people in this thread alone and in other places have stated that they simply DO care about crappy DPS no matter where they are. They just can't say anything about it right now.

If you tell some random that you're parsing now and they're too low, you can be banned for it if they report you because third party programs. You'd have to be either naive or willfully ignorant to think that this doesn't skew the current situation towards people not saying anything about low parses and just dealing with it, because they can be punished for saying anything about it right now. Remove that restriction because it's no longer third party and I can guarantee it'll go up.

If you're running a simple dungeon like say... Nevereapp then there is no point in stressing over DPS numbers because it's going to be cleared anyway.

I know.

If i queu for a lvl 60 dungeon and someone with similar gear is pulling 500dps while i pull 1.4k, ill kick them. i'm here for my eso or drop, not to carry their lazy ass

im not gonna spend 30-35minutes in fractal so im kicking that person.

Tell that to people like that.

Maybe you're choosing to ignore people like that because you think they're in the minority, and maybe they are, but that's a perfect example of the kind of person that the people you attack for being "fear mongers" are wanting to avoid. Which means you're factually incorrect by saying that it's not true at all.

If you are in an Extreme encounter or Savage then people have every darn right to complain about underperfoming party members because if they can't take criticism then they should not be in raids at all.

Which I've already said earlier in the thread I agree with. Really, like 99% of the people trying to argue with me could save everyone's time and space on the forum by just going back and reading what I've actually said and what my actual positions are.

All you are saying is, "I'm scared someone out there will be mean to me" or blatant exaggerations like, "everyone will suddenly turn into assholes if parsers are available".

No I'm not. I've said repeatedly that I'm a tank main, not a DPS, so I'm not as concerned with my DPS as I am with staying alive.

I've also never made any exaggerations about "everybody" turning into assholes, except one time where I explicitly stated I was using it as an example of a ridiculous exaggeration.

Even if I had said those, which I haven't, that still wouldn't be ALL I'm saying, because I also brought up a potential increase in harassment reports, whether actionable or not, which costs SE time and money for their GMs, AND brought up console limitations that have to be kept in mind, which you just completely ignored. Which isn't a surprise, because a lot of the pro-parsers somehow completely forget that due to alleged console limitations, we didn't have TP bars for a long time, yet somehow think a full parser with detailed information and a consistent overlay to be able to see data in real time is just easily added in.

So your solution? Keep people as ignorant as possible? Screw the PS4 players who can't parse themselves?

If you bothered to take the time to actually look for my solution, it's actually the opposite of what you're claiming.

In fact, if you had bothered to read the post you replied to, you would have read me saying:

Yes, I know, and that's why I support parsers in a limited scope and am not against them.

To restate my point for 99 millionth time even though I doubt you'll even read this post because you certainly didn't read my previous one, my position is that the optimal compromise is a personal parser with optional sharing. Personal by default for times when people DON'T need to see your parse (duty finder, roulettes), and optional sharing for when they DO (raids, Extreme trials).

But for some reason, some people are dead set against that because they want to see the parse at all times for some reason, even though you assert that people don't care about DPS outside of raids.

Parsers will not fix the problems with the community nor will it worsen it

Prove it won't worsen it. I'll help you out. You can't. No matter how much you state that it won't worsen it and no matter how many arguments you drag up from other places, you cannot prove it without putting parsers in because anything less is speculation. Speculation that's generally stated by people who want parsers, so one could argue a bias.

Parsers will do way more good for the community than bad by a very large margin

Prove it. I'll tell you to do this every time you make the claim. You have no more evidence that it will help the community and not negatively affect the community than I have to the opposite.

and there is not a single justifiable reason we shouldn't have them.

None that you'll read or admit to, anyways.

Feel free to debunk the console limitations one, though, since you think that it's not a justifiable reason.

I'm also curious as to what you mean by "limited" parsing because that sure doesn’t seem to make much sense.

It's been stated repeatedly throughout the thread. And I do mean repeatedly, because you people don't seem to like to catch up on an argument before jumping into it.

Edit: I'll also point out that while having a parser may have the potential to make someone improve, it also has the potential to make someone worse through tunnel vision. People standing in AOEs or ignoring adds simply because it'd cause their DPS to drop can cause a wipe just as much as someone having low DPS to start with. Things like this didn't become a comic because of a single isolated incident that happened to one raid ever.

It can be especially bad for people who you think SHOULD get it to improve. If someone's getting called out repeatedly for low DPS and they don't like it, do you think they're going to be the first to willingly jump over and do some mechanics or get out of AOEs that they could totally survive and just make the healers cast an extra heal on them when it's going to make their DPS drop a bit? DFing Alexander floor 1 can be annoying enough with multiple DPS that just leave the adds for someone else to handle while they continue shooting Oppressor... until the group wipes because nobody killed an add under a nuke.

[StouterTaru]

You'll have to start by proving that all these people in this thread and others that complain that they have to bite their tongue instead of calling people out on their low DPS

So by that logic we should also get rid of examining other people's gear, because people get shamed and discriminated against rampantly due to their gear, right?

[Aiselia]

So by that logic we should also get rid of examining other people's gear, because people get shamed and discriminated against rampantly due to their gear, right?

By what logic?

Your question has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Examining gear has objectively more uses and benefits than a parser. I already demolished that argument ages ago the last time you tried "Well, X can be abused too, so X should be removed."