The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

Except that it's not a valid reason at all.

Then prove it wrong.

You'll have to start by proving that all these people in this thread and others that complain that they have to bite their tongue instead of calling people out on their low DPS because it's specifically against the rules to say you're parsing won't, in fact, call people out on their low DPS if it's suddenly not against the rules to be parsing.

Good luck.

stating things that are simply not true.

Prove it to be wrong.

Are there people who would harass others because of parsers? Yes, definitely

Or it will cause an increase in harassment reports. Whether they're acted on or not, that's GM time that has to be spent on stuff, which backlogs the GMs and makes what could be more important issues get pushed later, which then annoys the customers who want a fast response but can't get them because the GMs are too busy dealing with reports about people trashing them over their DPS.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

Since you seem to think your argument is grounded in truth and evidence, which by the way it's not, prove that the potential for people to get better will objectively outweigh any negatives caused by an increase in harassment reports, including, but not limited to, time spent by GMs on reading and responding to tickets, money spent on extra GM time (or extra GMs if it's a significant increase), increased response times on tickets because of extra tickets, loss of revenue from people banned if they are found to be harassing, and potential loss of revenue from people who get harassed and think that the game is going down the crapper because it's not as fun any more.

Good luck.

Bear in mind that any benefits that a parser will bring are entirely subjective and not proven at all. Whether a player gets better with a parser is up to them, not the parser. People can still not care. A parser is not required to enjoy the game, as many console players enjoy the game and it's impossible for them to parse, and many PC players enjoy the game who do not parse. Since a parser is not required to enjoy the game, all benefits are subjective. So your job is to prove that subjective opinions are worth more than tangible costs in time and money if there is an increase in harassment.

There hasn't been a single case of people actually proving that parsers actually make player harassment worse.

So you're obviously choosing to ignore the multiple people who have flat out said that they totally would call out people on DPS if it wasn't bannable to even mention that they're parsing.

In fact there are various arguments that show that this just isn't the case.

Which are entirely subjective. There are also various arguments that parsing and players trying to enforce some subjective standard does increase harassment. Confirmation bias doesn't make your link automatically true.

Most good players that I know, and this has been backed up by other players experience, simply do not care about crappy DPS unless they are in a challenging raid.

What's your point? Your limited scope is irrelevant, as is it situationally useless as evidence. A lot of people in this thread alone and in other places have stated that they simply DO care about crappy DPS no matter where they are. They just can't say anything about it right now.

If you tell some random that you're parsing now and they're too low, you can be banned for it if they report you because third party programs. You'd have to be either naive or willfully ignorant to think that this doesn't skew the current situation towards people not saying anything about low parses and just dealing with it, because they can be punished for saying anything about it right now. Remove that restriction because it's no longer third party and I can guarantee it'll go up.

If you're running a simple dungeon like say... Nevereapp then there is no point in stressing over DPS numbers because it's going to be cleared anyway.

I know.

If i queu for a lvl 60 dungeon and someone with similar gear is pulling 500dps while i pull 1.4k, ill kick them. i'm here for my eso or drop, not to carry their lazy ass

im not gonna spend 30-35minutes in fractal so im kicking that person.

Tell that to people like that.

Maybe you're choosing to ignore people like that because you think they're in the minority, and maybe they are, but that's a perfect example of the kind of person that the people you attack for being "fear mongers" are wanting to avoid. Which means you're factually incorrect by saying that it's not true at all.

If you are in an Extreme encounter or Savage then people have every darn right to complain about underperfoming party members because if they can't take criticism then they should not be in raids at all.

Which I've already said earlier in the thread I agree with. Really, like 99% of the people trying to argue with me could save everyone's time and space on the forum by just going back and reading what I've actually said and what my actual positions are.

All you are saying is, "I'm scared someone out there will be mean to me" or blatant exaggerations like, "everyone will suddenly turn into assholes if parsers are available".

No I'm not. I've said repeatedly that I'm a tank main, not a DPS, so I'm not as concerned with my DPS as I am with staying alive.

I've also never made any exaggerations about "everybody" turning into assholes, except one time where I explicitly stated I was using it as an example of a ridiculous exaggeration.

Even if I had said those, which I haven't, that still wouldn't be ALL I'm saying, because I also brought up a potential increase in harassment reports, whether actionable or not, which costs SE time and money for their GMs, AND brought up console limitations that have to be kept in mind, which you just completely ignored. Which isn't a surprise, because a lot of the pro-parsers somehow completely forget that due to alleged console limitations, we didn't have TP bars for a long time, yet somehow think a full parser with detailed information and a consistent overlay to be able to see data in real time is just easily added in.

So your solution? Keep people as ignorant as possible? Screw the PS4 players who can't parse themselves?

If you bothered to take the time to actually look for my solution, it's actually the opposite of what you're claiming.

In fact, if you had bothered to read the post you replied to, you would have read me saying:

Yes, I know, and that's why I support parsers in a limited scope and am not against them.

To restate my point for 99 millionth time even though I doubt you'll even read this post because you certainly didn't read my previous one, my position is that the optimal compromise is a personal parser with optional sharing. Personal by default for times when people DON'T need to see your parse (duty finder, roulettes), and optional sharing for when they DO (raids, Extreme trials).

But for some reason, some people are dead set against that because they want to see the parse at all times for some reason, even though you assert that people don't care about DPS outside of raids.

Parsers will not fix the problems with the community nor will it worsen it

Prove it won't worsen it. I'll help you out. You can't. No matter how much you state that it won't worsen it and no matter how many arguments you drag up from other places, you cannot prove it without putting parsers in because anything less is speculation. Speculation that's generally stated by people who want parsers, so one could argue a bias.

Parsers will do way more good for the community than bad by a very large margin

Prove it. I'll tell you to do this every time you make the claim. You have no more evidence that it will help the community and not negatively affect the community than I have to the opposite.

and there is not a single justifiable reason we shouldn't have them.

None that you'll read or admit to, anyways.

Feel free to debunk the console limitations one, though, since you think that it's not a justifiable reason.

I'm also curious as to what you mean by "limited" parsing because that sure doesn’t seem to make much sense.

It's been stated repeatedly throughout the thread. And I do mean repeatedly, because you people don't seem to like to catch up on an argument before jumping into it.

Edit: I'll also point out that while having a parser may have the potential to make someone improve, it also has the potential to make someone worse through tunnel vision. People standing in AOEs or ignoring adds simply because it'd cause their DPS to drop can cause a wipe just as much as someone having low DPS to start with. Things like this didn't become a comic because of a single isolated incident that happened to one raid ever.

It can be especially bad for people who you think SHOULD get it to improve. If someone's getting called out repeatedly for low DPS and they don't like it, do you think they're going to be the first to willingly jump over and do some mechanics or get out of AOEs that they could totally survive and just make the healers cast an extra heal on them when it's going to make their DPS drop a bit? DFing Alexander floor 1 can be annoying enough with multiple DPS that just leave the adds for someone else to handle while they continue shooting Oppressor... until the group wipes because nobody killed an add under a nuke.

[StouterTaru]

You'll have to start by proving that all these people in this thread and others that complain that they have to bite their tongue instead of calling people out on their low DPS

So by that logic we should also get rid of examining other people's gear, because people get shamed and discriminated against rampantly due to their gear, right?

[Aiselia]

So by that logic we should also get rid of examining other people's gear, because people get shamed and discriminated against rampantly due to their gear, right?

By what logic?

Your question has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Examining gear has objectively more uses and benefits than a parser. I already demolished that argument ages ago the last time you tried "Well, X can be abused too, so X should be removed."

[StouterTaru]

By what logic?

Your question has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Examining gear has objectively more uses and benefits than a parser. I already demolished that argument ages ago the last time you tried "Well, X can be abused too, so X should be removed."

Your argument (the part I quoted) was that people are going to harass others based on low dps.

Examining gear has objectively fewer uses than knowing how much someone is contributing to a run. All gear shows you is what they can be doing, while parsing shows what they are doing.

You demolished nothing, I never used that argument before.

[Archaell]

...

Okay, clearly parsers are going to turn everybody into an elitist zombie tunnel visioning numbers.

I am not obsessed with the numbers, but I do seek equality. Equal accountability for every single member of the group.

How are you going to prevent one person in the group, when you have no metric, no idea who it is, to stop wasting other players' time? How are you going to enforce that every person does their part in fights required by the game itself? Suggestions are welcomed.

[Aiselia]

Okay, clearly parsers are going to turn everybody into an elitist zombie tunnel visioning numbers.

That seems like an awfully big exaggeration to make. You should avoid making bad arguments like that.

How are you going to prevent one person in the group, when you have no metric, no idea who it is, to stop wasting other players' time? How are you going to enforce that every person does their part in fights required by the game itself? Suggestions are welcomed.

In content where it matters, like raids and such? With parsers. Which is why I support them. Which I said in the post you quoted.

[Archaell]

That seems like an awfully big exaggeration to make. You should avoid making bad arguments like that.

In content where it matters, like raids and such? With parsers. Which is why I support them.

Wait... are you trying to tell me that time of hardcore raiders is more valuable than time of casual players in Duty Finder?

Here is the thing. The group's well being should come first over the comfort and laziness of individuals. It doesn't matter what kind of content it is.

If somebody is being toxic with parser numbers - you can kick them. If somebody is watching Netflix - you can kick them. Equality.

And for the record I never kick players from groups, but if they are showing lack of effort I do consider leaving them to their own devices.

[Aiselia]

Wait... are you trying to tell me that time of hardcore raiders is more valuable than time of casual players in Duty Finder?

No, I'm saying that there are DPS checks in raids where you absolutely need to be above a certain point or you will make zero progress, which is what makes it important.

There are no current dungeons that have DPS checks that require much more than basic character knowledge, and definitely no strict DPS checks. You will not fail Neverreap if your two DPS are each doing 500 DPS. Even the HM trials aren't particularly strict. I've cleared Bismarck HM with one DPS dead from the start because they jumped off the side before the fight even began.

Here is the thing. The group's well being should come first over the comfort and laziness of individuals. It doesn't matter what kind of content it is.

Here is the thing. There is no objective "acceptable" DPS short of "being able to clear the content".

If you can clear the content, you are doing enough DPS. Anything extra is a bonus to make it faster. Pulling one pack of mobs at a time? You can clear it. Pulling all the things and AOEing them down? You just clear it faster.

Are you claiming that you would be absolutely fine with a tank being kicked out of a run for NO reason other than that they didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it, because they should put their comfort behind what everybody else wants?

If you want to control your group and how fast you clear it, you are perfectly capable of creating a premade group. Expert Roulette lets you queue as a full group, even. You require zero random people. You can queue with three friends and clear it exactly as fast as you want.

If you don't want to accept that some people won't play to your standards, then you shouldn't be using DF when you have the ability to completely control whether or not the other people in your group will play to your standards. That would be like a gambler rolling dice and getting annoyed when they lose because they hate how dice have sides that aren't beneficial to them.

Your argument (the part I quoted) was that people are going to harass others based on low dps.

No it wasn't. It was that the person needs to prove that people won't.

Examining gear has objectively fewer uses than knowing how much someone is contributing to a run.

Uses of a parser:
See how well someone is fighting. May or may not help if they care to pay attention to you or the parser.

Uses for examining gear:
Seeing if someone's wearing crafting gear or the wrong stat.
Seeing what gear someone's actually wearing if they have it glamoured.
Seeing what someone's glamour is because you liked it and want to get the item too.

Or did you forget there's more to the game than DPS numbers?

[Archaell]

As long as content gets cleared...

No. No player should expect others to do their work for them. The current situation when players are allowed to do this while enjoying their sweet anonymity is something that should be prevented and not supported.

Funny as it is I am leveling my tanks through the Heavensward content. Do you know what I do when somebody tells me to pull more? I do pull more, I am not happy about it - as usually I do small pulls, but I am able to adjust.

Why don't players create their own PF groups when they want to get carried? Oh wait... if the whole group put in the same amount of Netflix effort, they wouldn't clear it...