Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

[Crica]

I can run around as a human-sized green rabbit with a laser gun blowing up everything in sight and leaping 50 metres into the air. Where's the realism in that?

We combine truths from our realities to make fake realities. Like putting a horn (horns do exist we did not create the concept or horns and it is not a 'fantasy' term) and putting it on a horse (also not a part of fantasy) and all of a sudden we have a unicorn. We consider a Unicorn 'Fantasy' though it is made up of very real ideas that are not even close to unique.

He is saying that fantasy games are created FROM our reality.

[Crica]

leaving the quote in its FF9 context it will always mean helping someone in need in a positive moral way

Therein lies the reason - the reason to help is because it is morally positive to do so - thereby annulling the statement.

Sorry, back to the topic.

[Konachibi]

He is saying that fantasy games are created FROM our reality.

Yup I know, but that's subjective. there are things in fantasy games that do not exist in reality, so to say all fantasy is derived from some mixture of things in reality is wrong.

For instance, although Sonic The Hedgehog's name features the word 'hedgehog', he is so far from looking like a hedgehog or any other animal/thing in reality that it'd be hard pressed to say anything about him is realistic at all, other than he has 2 legs and 2 arms. This did not stop him becoming one of the greatest video games character of all time however.

[Finuve]

Therein lies the reason - the reason to help is because it is morally positive to do so - thereby annulling the statement.

Sorry, back to the topic.

if someone wants to steal a car, you would help them by talking them out of it, and maybe helping them get a job

and I'm pretty sure any reason to stay on topic in this thread is long since gone, people clamoring for immersion want to inconvenience other people, people who don't want this want to ruin immersion fans fun

if this conversation is to continue it needs to move into a discussion that promotes both fun and immersion, could start by fixing the teleport animations

[Crica]

Yup I know, but that's subjective. there are things in fantasy games that do not exist in reality, so to say all fantasy is derived from some mixture of things in reality is wrong.

For instance, although Sonic The Hedgehog's name features the word 'hedgehog', he is so far from looking like a hedgehog or any other animal/thing in reality that it'd be hard pressed to say anything about him is realistic at all, other than he has 2 legs and 2 arms. This did not stop him becoming one of the greatest video games character of all time however.

Break it down far enough and all fantasy has something from reality, is what he is saying.

The fact that Sonic walks and runs is from reality.

Just have to break it down to its basics to find the reality.

[Crica]

if someone wants to steal a car, you would help them by talking them out of it, and maybe helping them get a job

They want you to help them steal the car, they do not want you to help them get a job.

[Finuve]

They want you to help them steal the car, they do not want you to help them get a job.

I'm sure you understand the point but are just trying to counterpoint

Helping someone steal a car isnt helping at all, even if they perceive it as such, helping someone would be pushing them back onto a moral path (lets not drag this too far into long annoying instances of grey areas though) or helping someone in need, food water health training etc

[Rhomagus]

To all readers in this thread:

look a few posts above at the definition of an RPG. It includes immersion. And why wouldn't it? RPG's are historically a combination of creative artistic worlds, in-depth stories, vast amounts of lore, wonder, imagination, and immersion. No one denies this. That doesn't make immersion objective.

If you want a game to be successful 'immersion' is important to take into account. That's why you're left the option but nonetheless this thread is about the definition of immersion which you've still yet to effectively prove the OP otherwise. It is created by a number of things such as:

+A continuous story + lore. Or in other words, the story and lore don't clash or change.
Example:
Lord of the Rings has Sauron, an antagonist with a detailed past.
Now imagine halfway through the LoTR series, Sauron -out of nowhere- turned into a cute fluffy sheep. You would probably be like "wtf?" and rightly so. Because it would destroy the story and would ruin any sense of immersion into the story and world. That's very different than instant teleporation or the implementation of a fade in/fade out mechanic for a cutscene.
I don't think there are any books that essentially just end randomly halfway through and go off on a completely different storyline and tangent. House of Leaves Mark Z. Danielewski. On a Winter's Night a Traveler Italo Calvino And if you ask yourself why, the clear answer is one of immersion. Danielewski, Calvino, and Wallace (which I've referenced before) all have non standard ways of immersing you in their fictions. Stories are about immersing you in a fictional universe, and changing the lore or rules The above authors do exactly this. or characters in that universe randomly without an explanation destroys the feeling of immersion and ruins the story. Not in the above author's cases. It actually only adds to it by breaking the fourth wall to a degree in a tasteful and meaningful way.

+Atmosphere. The atmosphere of a book, game, movie, etc, has a lot of effect on the ability to immerse someone into the media's world.
Examples:
Shadow of the Colossus is one of the highest praised "artistic" games on the PS2 scoring extremely good reviews from almost every site. Is XIV's goal to be an "artistic" game? Is it not trying to appeal to a massive audience? I'd argue that 'art' is one aspect of XIV's goal, and they do a damn good job in my opinion. The world is fairly massive and has no enemies whatsoever. There are just a number of bosses. So you run around for hours finding the bosses and then fight them. The game is successful because of its ability to immerse the player into its world. Can you define success for XIV? How do you think Naoki Yoshida would define success? Should I start putting quotes here about his vision for XIV as well? How do you think the development team would define success? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Colossus
http://www.brown.edu/Research/dichtu...ciccoricco.htmCool you can pull quotes. That's awesome. Can you read the paper? Can you apply critical thinking to what you've just read? Well let's see. I know I can. I can do it for you too:

Let's explore:

The sense of moral ambiguity evoked by the storyworld is one of the main reasons why Shadow of the Colossus is an aesthetically compelling video game. One reviewer suggests that the reason for these long stretches of riding is that they make ‘the player feel the isolation that the story tells the player they should feel’ Rhomagus: Are we supposed to feel isolated in an MMO?(Sherman 2006: n.p.). The observation speaks to Juul's (2005:15) question of an essential relationship between ‘theme’ and ‘structure’ in video game design, and serves as a productive example of story mechanics and game mechanics working in concert. With regard to gameplay and cognition, furthermore, the lengthy cut scenes and long stretches of riding in isolation are both design qualities that allow the player to respond reflectively to the storyworld, a response that calls on the player’s own form of narrative memory. In effect, the player not only inherits the task of the wanderer and the tools with which to accomplish that task, but also (potentially and ideally) the psychological baggage that his ordeal entails. Rhomagus: You create your own character in XIV. If you want to wait on an airship for 15 minutes that's fine. My character is too busy for that, so he'll take the instant option. Awesome, we're both pleased. Not to mention Shadow of the Colossus is a single player game and XIV is an MMO. The process of drawing on procedural and episodic memory systems is thus critical to the player’s experience as the character of the wanderer in the simulated world of Shadow of the Colossus. Rhomagus: Not XIV

Later in the text:

Literary theorist Wolfgang Iser (1978:27-38), for instance, differentiates between 1) the ‘actual reader’, who brings his/her individual experiences and preoccupations to the text, and 2) the ‘implied reader’, who is established by the ‘response-inviting structures’ of the text and in a sense produced by the text itself. Coherent world games invite a parallel notion of an actual and implied gamer, in which an implied gamer is similarly constructed by various components of the game’s fiction – such as characterization, themes, or even expressly narratological elements such as point of view.[4] In this regard, the player’s episodic memory is also informing what might be described as "extra-textual" acts of interpretation, which is a productive and inevitable consequence of reflective engagement with coherent world games.

In an MMO, you have to comply with both, and create content that appeals to both especially when considering the breadth of your audience. Shadow of the Colossus is a single player adventure for the PS2. In a sense it's like a fiction novel. It's readership will seek it out and to those it appeals to, it will 'immerse' them in it's subject material. It's a one time purchase and costs are regained through purchases on a per unit basis (or publisher funding in some cases).

XIV in this instance would be akin to a newspaper/news blog/periodical. It needs to appeal to a wider array of consumer and attract them with a common theme while accommodating to their readerships wants and needs. If no one continues to read > no readership/subscription revenue generated > no ad revenue > no funding > no newspaper/blog/periodical.

Let's also look at how the narrative structure references actual myth, weaving that complex tapestry in your brain and excercising it by creating visual references and "begging the question" to assert those all too familiar instances you may already be acquainted with.

Like your typical adventure story fare, Shadow of the Colossus borrows from diverse mythologies. There is a magic sword, a Sleeping Beauty, a Faustian pact, and of course a David and Goliath. Each giant has a weak spot reminiscent of Achilles, and these are revealed to the wanderer in the form of the sigils, which are derived from Jewish mysticism and the Kabala. (It can be said that a coherent world game does not necessarily imply a coherent “theme” game). Some of the allusions are more subtle. The name of the disembodied spirit/demon in the temple, Dormin, is Nimrod spelled backward. Nimrod is the first super-human, God-on-Earth figure in Biblical lore (Genesis 10.9), and is said to have persuaded the masses to build the Tower of Babel. Upon Nimrod’s death he was cut to pieces and spread throughout the earth. In Shadow of the Colossus, we learn that Dormin’s soul was separated into sixteen parts and sealed in the Colossi, who are spread out across the sacred land. Killing these giants [spoiler warning] will in turn set him free.

This particular paragraph does nothing more than reiterate the point that immersion is subjective. How's one supposed to draw these connections if they're unfamiliar with Nimrod or Faust? Those who are unfamiliar cannot have immersion in this manner. In XIV's case, a majority of the playerbase will be referencing games within the series and have addressed a need for those things to be there (chocobos, Cid, airships, moogles etc.) in order for them to be immersed at the most basic level. The more informed will be referencing historical figures and contents (Gaius Van Baelsar to Gaius Julius Caesar, Eorzean city-states to Greek city-states just prior to the Persian invasion, the foreshadowing present in the descriptions of Baelsar and Darnus on the Grand Company page). Some will not know of these connections but it only enhances the immersion for those who are informed. It is still subjective and only applies on a case by case basis. This type of immersion is solely dependent on the individuality of the consumer and only acts to enhance their immersion. It's negated if they do not have knowledge of the references.

The following is an interpretation by Ciccoricco himself

if we read the game in light of its contemporary cultural and political context, it would be difficult to ignore the fact that piercing a giant’s head with a final death blow results in a geyser-like explosion of black fluid that looks unmistakably like an oil well.

If you applied XIV to it's "contemporary cultural and political context" one might make the connection of the Garlean Empire utilizing Standard American English in contrast to the Eorzean's differing versions of British English and what that might entail.

That conclusion, while supportable, is entirely subjective and implies different things for different people.

Ciccoricco continues:

Are all or any of these inter-texts and observations fair game? Or are we just reading into things? In the end, it might all be a matter of how we want to exercise our brains Rhomagus: This is the killer blow here. While this isn't the thread, no one is advocating that there shouldn't be an airship ride or other alternate forms of transport besides the instantaneous one. Only that the instant option is retained after the introduction of other airship content., and what kinds of deposits we have made in our episodic memory banks. Nonetheless, what remains clear is that distinctions from the cognitive sciences can Rhomagus: Not "do" inform both ludologically and narratologically inclined approaches to gameplay, and more generally lead Rhomagus: Employing even more "safe" words here for the sake of academic honesty, which I applaud. to a richer understanding of games in aesthetic and pedagogical terms.]

Also, check his footnotes:

2. The concept of “playable character”, which denotes agency, clearly transcends “character”, which denotes a fictional person that elicits a sense of identification from a reader or viewer as it may be. Nevertheless, I use the term “playable character” as opposed to “avatar” to reserve the latter, in line with its origins in role-playing games, for discussions of playable characters that are configurable to some degree by the user.

This highlights, for the sake of our purposes here, the differences between XIV and Shadow of the Colossus. An even further support....

3. During cut scenes, the player is temporarily a viewer only, not engaged in gameplay. For this reason, cut scenes have been considered as problematic “non-game elements” in some circles and indispensable for conveying the game’s fiction in others (see Juul 2005 [16, 135] for more on this point).

Do you think only one type of circle surrounds the playerbase of XIV? Should we disregard the 'skip scene' game mechanic that has already been implemented for these 'outliers' and non-true believers of Final Fantasydom? For those that want to they can, by not choosing the 'skip scene' option.

And another note for the sake of academic honesty:

5. Discussing varied interpretations of Tetris, Juul (2005:133) has established that some interpretations are more convincing than others. Furthermore, Juul (2005:195) has discussed a divide between more experienced players who are more interested in game rules and less experienced players who are more interested in game fiction. I would propose adding a third "category" here: those who, whatever their level of gaming experience, are watching someone else play. These people are participating in the performative aspect of gameplay (as audience) as well as its social aspects, offering verbal input – and perhaps criticism – of the player’s moves. These participants (also referred to as “backseat button-mashers”) are arguably more attuned to analyses or reflection given that they are not otherwise occupied with direct cybernetic control of the game. Not only can these indirect participants help figure out puzzles for the player by observing the gameworld in a less constrained manner, they are more likely to view the game as an aesthetic object for the same reason.

Does the emphasis above not further add to the conclusion that immersion is subjective? (all emphases mine)


So here you have a literature lecturer explaining how a games atmosphere immerses the player. Yet says nothing on the definition of immersion nor says that immersion is not subjective. In actuality, the paper only adds supporting evidence that immersion is subjective.

Another great example of a game that is simple but immerses the player through atmosphere is Limbo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(video_game)
The game is considered to be an art game because the atmosphere is so well executed (both visual and audio wise) Is XIV not trying to appeal to a broader audience? Are they not trying to bring in both casual gamers and those who would be more inclined to relish in the details present in their crafted game world?

+A connection to the world. The best stories, movies, and games, are able to create worlds that individuals can connect to and feel a part of. No denial here. XIV is shaping up to be one among them. That means there are different types of characters, cultures, universal laws, history etc. Which resonate differently to different individuals. None of this has to be realistic. Precisely. Like instant airship travel. I'm glad we agree.
Examples:
Harry potter
Star wars
Most final fantasies (I personally liked ff JP6 / US3 the best)
The "Marvel" Universe
Xenosaga 1-3
Twilight (Don't knock it, there's a reason its so successful)
Stargate
Oblivion series
etc.

All of these appeal to different audiences. While they may share demographics in some instances, no one can say that if you like Stargate you must love Twilight. You even reference this in your post if even inadvertently.
Most of the best immersive worlds Nice use of safe words. Good work. Not being sarcastic here really. out there have been turned into franchises because the depth of worlds have provided a huge incentive for individuals to want to come back and experiance that world again. Final Fantasy numbering among them no doubt. When I was in grade 10 I ran a Harry Potter chat server with well over 100 people on at all times (its even mentioned in a few university published books on online communities). I don't see how this has to do with immersion being subjective or not. The point is, the 1000s of people that went on the chat Roleplayed most of the time pretending they were part of the Harry Potter world and creating their own characters. Roll a character on Besaid. The new official harry potter site which has been flooded by applications seeks to provide that sense of immersion as well. As does Naoki Yoshida, XIV, and SquareEnix as a whole I'm sure. This would only add to their confidence (and coffers). They are definitely not putting immersion on a backseat. They are having to appeal to a wider audience though, which beholds them to certain design decisions. Giving people an array of options that allows them to play the way they choose is one of them.

+Memorable characters
While this is not completely necessary, memorable characters tend to help people identify with a story and immerse themselves in the story and the world. For example harry potter has iconic characters like dumbledore and voldemort. FF7 has Aeries and Cloud. Do you really think FF7 would have been such a success if you just played a generic character and chose your allies like in tactics? I changed their names to Lucas and Emily my first playthrough. Is Tactics not applauded for what it did and it's gameplay goals? I know in some instances it's dogged for having a 30min. introductory sequence. Notwithstanding, Final Fantasy VII was well known for many reasons not just Aerith and Cloud. Let's not forget that the first Final Fantasy gave you generic characters that you had to name and it bred a devoted fanbase, became the saving grace for a dying Squaresoft, and churned out multiple iterations making it a world renowned franchise. Do you really think so many kids would RP Harry Potter stuff online or write 1000s of fan fics if instead of harry potter there were just short stories that took place in the wizarding world? Do you think people play Minecraft? Has someone not created a one to one scale of the Starship Enterprise? Would someone have to have extensive immersion in both worlds in order to do so? I know my nephew wrote some fan fiction incorporating himself into the game atmosphere of Minecraft and he doesn't even have the game to play it. That's pretty powerful immersion for a game that has below average graphics and no storyline.

There are numerous other things that contribute to a feeling of immersion Yes, most of them being subjective., and a feeling of immersion doesn't need everything listed and can be a combination of multiple ones. Yes, most definitely. I appreciate the academic honesty here.

However, FFXIV lacks almost all of them. Absolutely... I'd be using expletives here but it's not necessary.

1. there are no real memorable characters Your subjective opinion. I know I'm attached to Y'shtola and Rostnsthal personally.
There might be a few minor chars, but there aren't any Shantotto's yet yet in your opinion, no Prishes, and Cid hasn't played a serious role yet yet. The 3 leaders of the grand companies might become memorable at some point Ya their looking to be setup that way, pretty much making your first point absolutely useless. Why did you continue to write even though you acknowledged this?, but at the moment they haven't really played a huge part in any missions or quests. ... at the moment ...

2. the UI (minimap), instant teleportation, instant airships, etc all take away from the atmosphere. To your subjective opinion. This adds to the atmosphere for others.
And atmosphere alone has made some games complete hits. Like Shadow of the Colossus. An, as you imply, an 'artistic' game. Having an intrusive UI and a minimap causes people to always look at the minimap and ignore the beautifully designed world. Call for a toggle option. Awesome fixed problem... next! Having instant teleportation allows you to skip the world all together. Don't use it. Shadow of the Colossus Which isn't XIV nor a MMO that has to cater to a larger audience and incorporate a larger amount of gameplay "tastes". didn't allow you to teleport around to each boss. You had to explore the world and find them. But through that exploration you -felt- something. Okay. You can only say this because it was there. You can also only say this for you personally. You wouldn't be able to say this if they implemented an ability to teleport between each boss. It's incomparable as the games intended audience could be different if they decided to do so. They may have even changed the game mechanics in order to facilitate teleportation and added additional content to fill in what they deemed "gaps" in the story. They could've introduced more 'sidequest' content. Who knows? The possibilities are endless. Be it a sense of adventure, a love for the natural beauty, or the idea of being on a long journey. ... in Shadow of Colossus. A single player PS2 game. In doing this it immersed you into its world, and gained raving reviews becoming one of the best games of the year. Critical reviews. This does not mean sales. This does not mean subscriptions (which XIV needs to retain in order to feasibly exist). This does not mean consumer review (but I'm not denying that it's also high as well. Shadow of the Colossus is a great game especially for it's target audience and people who are able to appreciate it.)

3. The lore is disjointed and makes it a chore for people to learn about the world, and the story line is erratic, jumps around, and doesn't seem to pull many people into the game (partly because you can beat bosses through parley thus eliminating the danger or sense of epicness) All your opinion. It's fine for me. Plenty of stuff to do. I also like being able to experience the story even though I don't like battle at all.
People would have difficulty setting up an online RP for FFXIV because the lore and story just isn't accessible enough. lolentirereasonforbesaidserverandtherpclol

I could go on and on, but the point is, Immersion does matter for games. And immersion is different for everybody. Just because you bolded it doesn't make your other thread true. Not only does it matter for games, but it matters for books, movies and other forms of media as well. Which all employ different methods in order to immerse their target consumer base. And while choice can be nice, In an MMO where you have an individual identity it's almost completely necessary. it can also detract from immersion. In extreme circumstances. Skipping a cutscene is not one of them especially when the option is retained to not use it if you so choose. For example, if Shadow of the Colossus allowed instant transportation it would have never got the reviews it did. Unless it made up for that in some other means. Also, riding your horse is a game mechanic intended by the designers. If it wasn't intended there'd be something else to take it's place. And if you could choose to do whatever you wanted in most of the final fantasies and have no real main storyline or characters, they probably would never have been as successful. thank you for the safe words "probably" and "most". Each individual Final Fantasy has it's own flavor. Remember, in the first one you could name your characters whatever you wanted, choose to fight and level up or plow through as fast as possible, choose your own party makeup etc. There are a lot more choices in that game than you might be giving it credit for. There are a lot more choices in the franchise as a whole that you might not be giving it credit for. Also, no one is calling for no storyline and XIV certainly has one, that is an objective statement, and a good one might I add, but that's just my subjective opinion.

Thus the arguments many people make on these boards about things affecting immersion are legitimate. Some are. The retention of the instant airship option is not one of them. Nor is the lore explained anima game mechanic. It also isn't feasible when taking into the consideration of the views of other people's wants, needs, and expectations. Because those problems (mini-map, instant transportation, lack of overworld content) all effect the games overall immersive effect on -all- playersIf they so choose in some instances, yes in others. Should've gone with a safe word or two here honestly. And its unfair to try to write those arguments off as an argument for realism and limitations Actually you would be better off. You have a much more reasonable premise and you wouldn't constantly be wrong in your assumptions if you did so. Also, who says those are shallow to the point of being "written off". I don't think anyone has said that realism and limitations should be written off, but again, you have yet to propose that argument. Your argument on immersion is incorrect from it's premise., because that's not what they are. Actually that's exactly what they are. They are arguments for the future of FFXIV and whether or not it will be a log-on-port-fight-log-off game or an immersive experience like ffxi was. It's up to you how you play XIV. We've already confirmed that you do not play it in that manner. We've confirmed that Konachibi doesn't play it in that manner. I think there are a lot of RP LS's on Besaid that would also like a word with you, and that's not even including myself (which I've already let you know my playstyle) and I know I don't play that way. Doesn't negate the fact that if some people want to play that way they should have the freedom to do so. I really don't feel like posting Yoshi quotes again but I'll do it if you are insistent on sticking with this indefensible position.

Immersion is somewhat subjective We've already gone through what is subjective and objective about immersion., but when a company can pull it off, it is quite obvious and can be a strong contribution towards the critical success of a game. All games have the potential to pull it off. Some games relish in their 'immersive' qualities. All games have to balance their 'immersive' qualities and that balance is different for each and every game that has a different target demographic. When I and others argue against ruining game immersion we are doing so because we have played great games in the past (some would argue ffxi) that immersed us in the world and made us want to come back, For a lot of gamers, this isn't enough. It's only a part of the whole package, not to mention your avenues for immersion are still in tact. You just want to dictate what others see as immersion and you're insecure in the fact that you can't because ultimately immersion is subjective. not necessarily for the gameplay but for the atmosphere, environment, story, lore, characters, etc. To be honest, if it didn't have decent gameplay you wouldn't stick with it. I can't say that for sure but if it took you 8 days to get form La Noscea to Gridania and only because you walked ridiculously slow and you were kicked from the game ever 7 steps I don't think you'd stick with it. Then again, with your penchant for timesinks I shouldn't rule it out. We see FFXIV slipping away from this to become focused on gameplay only This is objectively false. and many of us don't believe that will lead to success. It's not focused on gameplay only and that's a disingenuous position to take specifically from you, who is compiling a lore guide as of this writing. You are obviously immersed enough to go out of your way to present and share XIV's content for others to view in an attempt to compile or have an "outside conversation" of the game. You are immersed in the game than most. Final Fantasy is a franchise based on story and immersion. That's one aspect of it, which is still very much alive and retained in XIV, and an instant airship option and teleportation which is supported by the lore does nothing to objectively take away immersion. That is its strength, and we would like to see them play to their strengths and not diminish them. They are! You will get an airship cutscene. You can still walk. You don't have to choose an instant option.

Extensive critique added. I'm glad I unblocked you so that I could show that you were trying to make an appeal to authority in your scholarly source. Unfortunately you failed to read the whole paper and didn't notice that it actually supports the idea that immersion is subjective, thus negating the premise of your entire post.

Good luck next time, and remember. I will read it.

Don't call my bluff, because I'm not bluffing.

[Konachibi]

if someone wants to steal a car, you would help them by talking them out of it, and maybe helping them get a job

and I'm pretty sure any reason to stay on topic in this thread is long since gone, people clamoring for immersion want to inconvenience other people, people who don't want this want to ruin immersion fans fun

if this conversation is to continue it needs to move into a discussion that promotes both fun and immersion, could start by fixing the teleport animations

Speechless...

Really, I am.

Awesome! (b'.')b

I say we go with this idea, instead of going at each others throats about what immersion is and isn't, we discuss things that could improve our ability to become immersed in the game and it's many bits'n'pieces.

Teleport animations defenitely, especially if it means my frame-rate doesn't drop from 30 to 3 everytime someone uses it.

Someway for clothes to change without the character dissapearing, though to be honest the only other possible options I can think of is either to make huge animations that show the character physically changing their clothes which would take too long and spend too much time developing for something that's not really that important, or to make the characters clothes change without the character dissapearing, like *popping* clothes. Though that'd probably be a bit daft. But then that's the system other mmo's use. I guess in a way I kinda do prefer the character dissapearing :3

Does kinda get annoying when you're swapping loads of gear though and it takes ages 'cos your character keeps popping on and off the screen.

[Konachibi]

Break it down far enough and all fantasy has something from reality, is what he is saying.

The fact that Sonic walks and runs is from reality.

Just have to break it down to its basics to find the reality.

Ah. So then I'd have to find an example of something completely devoid of any possible link to reality.

Hmm...