Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

[Azurymber]

Most of the article in that link was explaining immersiveness when being used to tell stories. Your arguements so far have been about the immersiveness of the FFXIV world (Teleporting etc.) FFXIV features a story but it is not it's entire purpose. Stories and online video games are two totally different things. A story in a book is JUST a story, a story in a game is just part of it's entirity. The article that has been linked does not counter my statement.

Untill you can come up with a legitimate FACTUAL reason with proper information that tells me how the facts I stated in the original post are wrong, you cannot prove that what I am saying is wrong, you can only make baseless statements using irrelevant information in an attempt to to catch me off guard and say something that will differ from my original post.

I however, will not fall for this.

Your statement is still incorrect.

look a few posts above at the definition of an RPG. It includes immersion. And why wouldn't it? RPG's are historically a combination of creative artistic worlds, in-depth stories, vast amounts of lore, wonder, imagination, and immersion.

If you want a game to be successful 'immersion' is important to take into account. It is created by a number of things such as:

+A continuous story + lore. Or in other words, the story and lore don't clash or change.
Example:
Lord of the Rings has Sauron, an antagonist with a detailed past.
Now imagine halfway through the LoTR series, Sauron -out of nowhere- turned into a cute fluffy sheep. You would probably be like "wtf?" and rightly so. Because it would destroy the story and would ruin any sense of immersion into the story and world.
I don't think there are any books that essentially just end randomly halfway through and go off on a completely different storyline and tangent. And if you ask yourself why, the clear answer is one of immersion. Stories are about immersing you in a fictional universe, and changing the lore or rules or characters in that universe randomly without an explanation destroys the feeling of immersion and ruins the story.

+Atmosphere. The atmosphere of a book, game, movie, etc, has a lot of effect on the ability to immerse someone into the media's world.
Examples:
Shadow of the Colossus is one of the highest praised "artistic" games on the PS2 scoring extremely good reviews from almost every site. The world is fairly massive and has no enemies whatsoever. There are just a number of bosses. So you run around for hours finding the bosses and then fight them. The game is successful because of its ability to immerse the player into its world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Colossus

Dave Ciccoricco, a literature lecturer at the University of Otago (and U of Canterbury NZ), praised the game for its use of long cutscenes and stretches of riding to make the player engage in self-reflection and feel immersed in the game world.

http://www.brown.edu/Research/dichtu...ciccoricco.htm

So here you have a literature lecturer explaining how a games atmosphere immerses the player.

Another great example of a game that is simple but immerses the player through atmosphere is Limbo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(video_game)
The game is considered to be an art game because the atmosphere is so well executed (both visual and audio wise)

+A connection to the world. The best stories, movies, and games, are able to create worlds that individuals can connect to and feel a part of. That means there are different types of characters, cultures, universal laws, history etc. None of this has to be realistic.
Examples:
Harry potter
Star wars
Most final fantasies (I personally liked ff JP6 / US3 the best)
The "Marvel" Universe
Xenosaga 1-3
Twilight (Don't knock it, there's a reason its so successful)
Stargate
Oblivion series
etc.

Most of the best immersive worlds out there have been turned into franchises because the depth of worlds have provided a huge incentive for individuals to want to come back and experiance that world again. When I was in grade 10 I ran a Harry Potter chat server with well over 100 people on at all times (its even mentioned in a few university published books on online communities). The point is, the 1000s of people that went on the chat Roleplayed most of the time pretending they were part of the Harry Potter world and creating their own characters. The new official harry potter site which has been flooded by applications seeks to provide that sense of immersion as well.

+Memorable characters
While this is not completely necessary, memorable characters tend to help people identify with a story and immerse themselves in the story and the world. For example harry potter has iconic characters like dumbledore and voldemort. FF7 has Aeries and Cloud. Do you really think FF7 would have been such a success if you just played a generic character and chose your allies like in tactics? Do you really think so many kids would RP Harry Potter stuff online or write 1000s of fan fics if instead of harry potter there were just short stories that took place in the wizarding world?

There are numerous other things that contribute to a feeling of immersion, and a feeling of immersion doesn't need everything listed and can be a combination of multiple ones.

However, FFXIV lacks almost all of them.

1. there are no real memorable characters
There might be a few minor chars, but there aren't any Shantotto's yet, no Prishes, and Cid hasn't played a serious role yet. The 3 leaders of the grand companies might become memorable at some point, but at the moment they haven't really played a huge part in any missions or quests.

2. the UI (minimap), instant teleportation, instant airships, etc all take away from the atmosphere.
And atmosphere alone has made some games complete hits. Having an intrusive UI and a minimap causes people to always look at the minimap and ignore the beautifully designed world. Having instant teleportation allows you to skip the world all together. Shadow of the Colossus didn't allow you to teleport around to each boss. You had to explore the world and find them. But through that exploration you -felt- something. Be it a sense of adventure, a love for the natural beauty, or the idea of being on a long journey. In doing this it immersed you into its world, and gained raving reviews becoming one of the best games of the year.

3. The lore is disjointed and makes it a chore for people to learn about the world, and the story line is erratic, jumps around, and doesn't seem to pull many people into the game (partly because you can beat bosses through parley thus eliminating the danger or sense of epicness)
People would have difficulty setting up an online RP for FFXIV because the lore and story just isn't accessible enough.

I could go on and on, but the point is, Immersion does matter for games. Not only does it matter for games, but it matters for books, movies and other forms of media as well. And while choice can be nice, it can also detract from immersion. For example, if Shadow of the Colossus allowed instant transportation it would have never got the reviews it did. And if you could choose to do whatever you wanted in most of the final fantasies and have no real main storyline or characters, they probably would never have been as successful.

Thus the arguments many people make on these boards about things affecting immersion are legitimate. Because those problems (mini-map, instant transportation, lack of overworld content) all effect the games overall immersive effect on -all- players. And its unfair to try to write those arguments off as an argument for realism and limitations, because that's not what they are. They are arguments for the future of FFXIV and whether or not it will be a log-on-port-fight-log-off game or an immersive experience like ffxi was.

Immersion is somewhat subjective, but when a company can pull it off, it is quite obvious and can be a strong contribution towards the critical success of a game. When I and others argue against ruining game immersion we are doing so because we have played great games in the past (some would argue ffxi) that immersed us in the world and made us want to come back, not necessarily for the gameplay but for the atmosphere, environment, story, lore, characters, etc. We see FFXIV slipping away from this to become focused on gameplay only and many of us don't believe that will lead to success. Final Fantasy is a franchise based on story and immersion. That is its strength, and we would like to see them play to their strengths and not diminish them.

[Eekiki]

Rest assured, I read your whole post.

Thus the arguments many people make on these boards about things affecting immersion are legitimate. Because those problems (mini-map, instant transportation, lack of overworld content) all effect the games overall immersive effect on -all- players.

No, it doesn't affect -all- players, just you. What you call "problems" do not affect my ability to get into the game and forget my problems for awhile.

Immersion is somewhat subjective, but when a company can pull it off, it is quite obvious and can be a strong contribution towards the critical success of a game.

And now you're admitting that your definition of "immersion" is subjective, contradicting everything you've just said.

[Azurymber]

while it may be subjective, games such as Shadow of the Colossus, books like harry potter, movies like star wars, all prove that if done right it can draw in almost anyone.

Saying you don't want immersion to effect your fun is essentially a pro-botter stance, since botters will argue they only bot to make the game more fun. So by your logic no one should stop them even though they negatively effect the game, because we would be detracting from their fun.

to put the argument another way. Immersion will up ratings and draw people to play. Ignoring immersion to create a "fun" or "easy" game may allow for more choice but at the same time a lackluster game. To be successful fun and convenience needs to be balanced with immersion.

Those not interested in immersion shouldn't be playing MMO's since MMORPG's are meant to be immersive to some extent. If you want instant gratification games without overworlds you have stuff like diablo.

Let me put it another way. Those arguing that immersion such as scrapping instant ports ruins their fun are essentially arguing that every videogame released should come with built in cheat codes that let you god mode, insta port, skip levels, etc. Because then the player can choose how much they want to immerse themselves into the game.
.... but how many games -really- do that?

If the argument for easy-moding is such a strong one, every game should be released with cheats included, because then more people would have fun right? And if no one is doing it, then the few games that do should get -much- better ratings and have a much more competitive edge and force other games to do it (capitalism).
but they aren't are they?

[Crica]

Immersion will up ratings and draw people to play.

As long as they ARE immersed by the content.

Players who are NOT immersed by the content will not play.

You ARE immersed by traveling slow.

I am NOT immersed by traveling slow.

You will play the game that includes slow traveling, I will not play the game that does not include fast traveling.

If the game adds an option to travel fast along with the option to travel slow, we BOTH will play the game.

[Konachibi]

while it may be subjective, game such as Shadow of the Colossus, books like harry potter, movies like star wars, all prove that if done right it can draw in almost anyone.

Saying you don't want immersion to effect your fun is essentially a pro-botter stance, since botters will argue they only bot to make the game more fun. So by your logic no one should stop them even though they negatively effect the game, because we would be detracting from their fun.

to put the argument another way. Immersion will up ratings and draw people to play. Ignoring immersion to create a "fun" or "easy" game may allow for more choice but at the same time a lackluster game. Those not interested in immersion shouldn't be playing MMO's since MMORPG's are meant to be immersive to some extent. If you want instant gratification games without overworlds you have stuff like diablo.

Harry Potter probably has more people hate it worldwide than like it. Everyone I know irl hate it, and I know a lot of people.
Star Wars doesn't draw in anyone, it draws in sci-fi fans. Most of the people I know don't care for Star Wars either.

Also perhaps you didn't notice but a vast majority of people in the forums have already said your lack of immersion in the game is your own fault. The game itself is brimming with immersion, it's your problem if you can't accept it.

How many times must people poke you with an angry stick before you suddenly realise that all you're continuously doing is making a fool of yourself by trying to counter fact?

Diablo was an action RPG with an online function, it has as much immersion as any other RPG, if the player chooses to let themselves be immersed by it.

Also I just noticed this thread has been labelled as a 'hot topic' despite many of the first posters claiming it's going to die off really quick :3

[Finuve]

Harry Potter probably has more people hate it worldwide than like it. Everyone I know irl hate it, and I know a lot of people.
Star Wars doesn't draw in anyone, it draws in sci-fi fans. Most of the people I know don't care for Star Wars either.

Also perhaps you didn't notice but a vast majority of people in the forums have already said your lack of immersion in the game is your own fault. The game itself is brimming with immersion, it's your problem if you can't accept it.

How many times must people poke you with an angry stick before you suddenly realise that all you're continuously doing is making a fool of yourself by trying to counter fact?

Diablo was an action RPG with an online function, it has as much immersion as any other RPG, if the player chooses to let themselves be immersed by it.

Also I just noticed this thread has been labelled as a 'hot topic' despite many of the first posters claiming it's going to die off really quick :3

there is no choice in immersion, it is a feeling, it either happens or doesnt happen, you lose yourself in the game or you don't

[DNO]

there is no choice in immersion, it is a feeling, it either happens or doesnt happen, you lose yourself in the game or you don't

this is wrong. If i chose not to play the game i wont get lost in it. I love football and i am immersed in WATCHING it but i will never play madden.

[Azurymber]

Harry Potter probably has more people hate it worldwide than like it. Everyone I know irl hate it, and I know a lot of people.
Star Wars doesn't draw in anyone, it draws in sci-fi fans. Most of the people I know don't care for Star Wars either.

Also perhaps you didn't notice but a vast majority of people in the forums have already said your lack of immersion in the game is your own fault. The game itself is brimming with immersion, it's your problem if you can't accept it.

How many times must people poke you with an angry stick before you suddenly realise that all you're continuously doing is making a fool of yourself by trying to counter fact?

Diablo was an action RPG with an online function, it has as much immersion as any other RPG, if the player chooses to let themselves be immersed by it.

Also I just noticed this thread has been labelled as a 'hot topic' despite many of the first posters claiming it's going to die off really quick :3

thats because people on here have extremest views. Which is one of the reasons the game won't do well.
Harry potter is one of the most successful franchises of all time
star wars TOR has over 1million beta signups and is nearing or over 500k preorders now
Shadow of the Colossus was a hit and is thought of as a classic and it forced people to walk around without even having enemies in the world.

I provided you with multiple -real life- success stories to back up my arguments, but you argue "i dont think people really like those things" even though they have been far more successful than FFXIV.

Immersion is something created by the game devs. Its what brings a game a good review. If this wasn't true than games would be reviewed on gameplay alone, and they are not.

I actually provided real arguments, quotes, and links to games that were a success based on immersion and you just said "no one agrees with you"

Although the quotes i showed, clearly shows people who -study- the field do....

[Rhomagus]

thats because people on here have extremest views. Which is one of the reasons the game won't do well.
Harry potter is one of the most successful franchises of all time
star wars TOR has over 1million beta signups and is nearing or over 500k preorders now
Shadow of the Colossus was a hit and is thought of as a classic and it forced people to walk around without even having enemies in the world.

I provided you with multiple -real life- success stories to back up my arguments, but you argue "i dont think people really like those things" even though they have been far more successful than FFXIV.

Immersion is something created by the game devs. Its what brings a game a good review. If this wasn't true than games would be reviewed on gameplay alone, and they are not.

I actually provided real arguments, quotes, and links to games that were a success based on immersion and you just said "no one agrees with you"

Although the quotes i showed, clearly shows people who -study- the field do....

What am I reading?

Who has an extremist point of view?

[Azurymber]

What am I reading?

Who has an extremist point of view?

anyone who would argue "welllll my friends all hate harry potter so more people hate it than like it" when its one of the biggest franchises worldwide.

When you start to argue things that way, that's extremism. Illogical "my friends are like this so it must be true" arguments.

That and its the exact same few people consistantly arguing that immersion is bad and getting very few likes for it.

If you think you're position is right, make a thread and poll people on it. Because so far the posts about saving immersion have been getting a lot more likes than the ones asking for "freedom"