The issue nobody wants to address

[Ryel]

I won't argue about that, as I do agree about the benefits towards those situations. It'll simply be a tool to support the necessity to properly kick, which as the person quoted said, is something that can already be done, just not as effectively or easily. I'll just say that this is likely an example of us just wanting to grasp whatever form of mediation, despite it not being as common as implied (for most of us). Which leads me to the next point.

Something to keep in mind is that we always remember the bad, more than the good (or acceptable). We focus on these things, so it's natural find out about. A lot of the time, it's the same people posting on same-topic threads. I'm guilty of that, definitely. But you have to take into account what the ratio is of these bad and completely unacceptable occurrences are. Out of the literally hundreds/thousands of group content that most of us have done, can we honestly say that the inexcusable wipes/problems, specifically from DPS, occurred so often that we could even remotely consider it something more than "rare"? Speaking on an individual level, as our own personal experience is the only thing we truly have to go on as fact. I can say that, personally, it is absolutely rare in ratio to the whole of groups I've been in. It's almost guaranteed you'll encounter it from time to time, but hardly something you always expect in a general situation. Specifically pointing out ridiculous expectations, like clearing a DF T9 or Ultima HM back in ARR is not a valid argument, as we're talking about the whole here, and I know some people would reach for those to support their arguments.

The majority of those posts in the thread pertain to complaints about bad tanks and healers, more than DPS, if the first 3 pages and the last are anything to go on. What DPS complaints I did notice were specific to SMN though lol. I have my own complaints about bad tanks in AV. Tanks that don't know how to build threat or manage AoE threat. They're literally the only problems I've encountered when it comes to AV, which has been the only thing I've gotten lately for lower roulette. Parsing doesn't exactly save me from those terrible tanks, honestly.

Honestly i believe we can and that's the sad thing, i won't say that statistically it happens more often than not. I would however say it happens enough to be an issue that actually warrants attention. On the casual spectrum it's not like this game has a ton of content that is really taxing / difficult and yet for some reason we seem to get a large number of nerfs / echo to accommodate poor play. I'm not specifically referring to endgame like coil / Alexander either.

I know personally it's gotten to the point for me (and this is completely anecdotal) that I'm hesitant to queue for low level roulette because of the constant disasters I've seen in dungeons / story mode primals.

/nod Yep. But again, that's something irrelevant to parsers and just a matter of L2P.

In the case of Steps of Faith yeah, however it shows that we cannot have mechanically driven fights because the player base cannot handle them so the Devs keep going back to DPS checks.

High responsibility roles are always the first to blame, be it parser or no. There's no escape from that, even if DPS were more accountable.

The general flowchart goes:
Did tank die? If yes, blame healer.
Did healer die? If yes, blame tank.
Did DPS/support/etc die? If yes, blame healer and/or tank.
Did the whole group die because of not properly taking down a target before a party wipe mechanic occurred? If yes, blame DPS.

Notice how many occasions roles besides DPS get called on? Of course, there are some mechanics that rely on others to do something extra, like any gaol type mechanics. This is just how things work in a party setting with designated roles. You rely and place more responsibility on the people who keep you alive than you do the people who might get you through something faster (which is one of the only varying effects between competent DPS).

I would argue that this game (unlike other MMOs) makes DPS a high responsibility job by the nature of DPS checks, the player community however does not approach content with this mindset, and the game offers no tools or feedback to bring players up to the level content is asking for.

That is to say.. not only are there no rewards or feedback for a DPS player to know how well they are performing their job there's not even a metric given to allow them to improve. DPS checks are often pass/fail and either the party wipes or it doesn't and it doesn't tell you which DPS helped contribute to that.

Yes, exactly. This is a big part of the core argument that should be stated for pro-parser arguments. Unfair advantages between console players inability to access parsers themselves is also in relation to that, regardless of how minimal it is and the fact that there are ways to get said information through others, it's just something you can't do on your own as a console player. It's a strong supporting argument because of that inability and the fact you're essentially encouraged to break the rules a bit.

agreed.

There are much better reasons to be pro-parser than to argue for the tool to simply point out bad players, as you/me/others have indicated. People need to stick to those arguments, instead of always defaulting to the finger pointing one.

I actually fully agree with this.

The issue that this thread initially tried to address before it became The Great Parse Debate of 2015 #80,000: "uMad Edition" is that the community at it's base level seems to have a fundamental issue with calls for players to improve in any capacity. Like we actively encourage and support mediocrity in the form of calls for content nerfs, cries of "it's just a game!" or "it's my 12 bucks a month!" and in the worst case "You're just an elitist!!" whenever someone even hints at the idea that perhaps players should try.

I think part of the reason that the parsing debate keeps coming up is because the players that are aware of this realize that the community is in desperate need of a wake-up call to show just how bad the situation often is, before either content continues to get nerfed to the point that it becomes just plain uninteresting or the Devs just stop trying altogether.

I'd love to step away from DPS checks and have more mechanically driven fights which would lead to an environment where parsers are essentially useless, but the reactions to things like Steps of Faith tell me that i'm not allowed to have that.

[Welsper59]

Honestly i believe we can and that's the sad thing, i won't say that statistically it happens more often than not. I would however say it happens enough to be an issue that actually warrants attention. On the casual spectrum it's not like this game has a ton of content that is really taxing / difficult and yet for some reason we seem to get a large number of nerfs / echo to accommodate poor play. I'm not specifically referring to endgame like coil / Alexander either.

I know personally it's gotten to the point for me (and this is completely anecdotal) that I'm hesitant to queue for low level roulette because of the constant disasters I've seen in dungeons / story mode primals.

All/most of those issues are not parser related though, at least the ones out of highest endgame raid tier. You're right that it can reach a point that attention is needed. What we need isn't parsers, but rather something to either encourage or, more effectively, force learning to play acceptably in most content, including higher end faceroll 4-mans. This, on its own however, creates headaches in other ways that either already marginally exist now or will come to be.

If what a lot of pro-parser people are using as a point is accountability, then that point is the focus that needs to resolved. As I always point out, parsers don't do much for this, outside of finger pointing. It won't affect bads from getting what they want for being bad/lazy.

It's the fact that accountability is being taken into consideration as having an impact of sorts as pro-parser that makes me really dislike the argument. It falls short to fix that problem that is so popularly referred to, yet pro-parser arguments for it seem to think that's fine and the minuscule benefit towards that is enough to warrant having it lol. It's basically reaching. Which is why I argue that accountability is hardly a point worth mentioning for a pro-parser argument. There are just too many variables at play for it and much of what is being said can already be done in some way.

In the case of Steps of Faith yeah, however it shows that we cannot have mechanically driven fights because the player base cannot handle them so the Devs keep going back to DPS checks.

Yes, and that's something that circles back to how it's an ineffective way to get people to play better. Referring to both the devs fallback on DPS checks and the argument that officiating parsers will help people improve, in a notable way, any differently than they could now.

I would argue that this game (unlike other MMOs) makes DPS a high responsibility job by the nature of DPS checks, the player community however does not approach content with this mindset, and the game offers no tools or feedback to bring players up to the level content is asking for.

That is to say.. not only are there are rewards or feedback for a DPS player to know how well they are performing their job there's not even a metric given to allow them to improve. DPS checks are often pass/fail and either the party wipes or it doesn't and it doesn't tell you which DPS helped contribute to that.

I can certainly agree with you here, though only in terms of endgame progression raiding, rather than most things of lower tier. As you've pointed out before, most of the lower content is simple enough that the need for something like parsers to complete it would just be ridiculous lol. It's just a matter of getting people to try (or making them try), if they want to succeed. This is accomplished through content development, rather than anything else. If we want them to fix something, they need to do it right. Not band-aid the problem with something that barely does anything at all for it. Parsers have a greater beneficial impact in other areas, which I would argue is universally agreed upon, and those are the ones that need to focused on.

I actually fully agree with this.

The issue that this thread initially tried to address before it became The Great Parse Debate of 2015 #80,000: "uMad Edition" is that the community at it's base level seems to have a fundamental issue with calls for players to improve in any capacity. Like we actively encourage and support mediocrity in the form of calls for content nerfs, cries of "it's just a game!" or "it's my 12 bucks a month!" and in the worst case "You're just an elitist!!" whenever someone even hints at the idea that perhaps players should try.

I think part of the reason that the parsing debate keeps coming up is because the players that are aware of this realize that the community is in desperate need of a wake-up call to show just how bad the situation often is, before either content continues to get nerfed to the point that it becomes just plain uninteresting or the Devs just stop trying altogether.

I'd love to step away from DPS checks and have more mechanically driven fights which would lead to an environment where parsers are essentially useless, but the reactions to things like Steps of Faith tell me that i'm not allowed to have that.

Glad we can come to several agreements in our own ways lol.

[Ryel]

All/most of those issues are not parser related though, at least the ones out of highest endgame raid tier. You're right that it can reach a point that attention is needed. What we need isn't parsers, but rather something to either encourage or, more effectively, force learning to play acceptably in most content, including higher end faceroll 4-mans. This, on its own however, creates headaches in other ways that either already marginally exist now or will come to be.

True, i'm always saddened that the system for Guildhests werent properly taken advantage of by the Devs, they seem like such a great opportunity for learning but:

A) They aren't mandatory / part of the main scenario going up to 50 and now 60 with Heavensward.
B) New ones aren't added when more content hits.

It baffles me as to why these seem like such a missed opportunity to help players grow and improve. Even with the addition of Heavensward they could have added a whole set of "Ishgardian training drills" to go over various encounter mehcanics and yet we don't see anything like that added.

If they had properly kept up with those we probably wouldn't see half the issues we currently do and there would be less cries for a public parse to be added (though it wouldn't completely remove the need).

If what a lot of pro-parser people are using as a point is accountability, then that point is the focus that needs to resolved. As I always point out, parsers don't do much for this, outside of finger pointing. It won't affect bads from getting what they want for being bad/lazy.

It's the fact that accountability is being taken into consideration as having an impact of sorts as pro-parser that makes me really dislike the argument. It falls short to fix that problem that is so popularly referred to, yet pro-parser arguments for it seem to think that's fine and the minuscule benefit towards that is enough to warrant having it lol. It's basically reaching. Which is why I argue that accountability is hardly a point worth mentioning for a pro-parser argument. There are just too many variables at play for it and much of what is being said can already be done in some way.

I would argue that finger pointing isn't always a bad thing if it doesn't come from a point of hostility, sometimes players just need someone to point at their play and say "Hey, look at this for a second".

I do think all roles need a form of accountability in instances where the game expects us to work together, that isn't to say that carrying someone here and there is out of the question but even the tiniest bit of effort from the party goes a lot further than players realize.

Game systems should teach us from the ground up what's expected when we enter a 4/8 man party, then feedback systems should support that to make sure we're putting into effect what we've learned.

Additionally i would ask if you've read this Reddit thread that keeps being tossed around (for good reason):

FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?

It touches on some of the same points, and actually raises the counterpoints of players pointing fingers without numbers to even back them up

EDIT: Judging by posted comments you already have.

Yes, and that's something that circles back to how it's an ineffective way to get people to play better. Referring to both the devs fallback on DPS checks and the argument that officiating parsers will help people improve, in a notable way, any differently than they could now.

If MMO history is any indicator, community response to public parsing will mostly be apathetic, and players generally won't care. I do think it's better to have than not in most cases however.

I can certainly agree with you here, though only in terms of endgame progression raiding, rather than most things of lower tier. As you've pointed out before, most of the lower content is simple enough that the need for something like parsers to complete it would just be ridiculous lol. It's just a matter of getting people to try (or making them try), if they want to succeed. This is accomplished through content development, rather than anything else. If we want them to fix something, they need to do it right. Not band-aid the problem with something that barely does anything at all for it. Parsers have a greater beneficial impact in other areas, which I would argue is universally agreed upon, and those are the ones that need to focused on.

Yeah in the majority of low end content the idea of bringing up / using a parser is just laughable, but it does raise some eyebrows when people wipe to things like Nidhogg because a DPS was like... eating glue or something.

Glad we can come to several agreements in our own ways lol.

Same, i think this is a conversation that definitely needs to be had in the open even if every point isn't always met eye to eye.

[Preypacer]

Is this.. a legitimate question?

Okay.. we can go there.

...

All that in mind, I have a serious question to ask in response... Simple yes or no question:

Have people not been clearing all that content without a (official) parser?

(the only correct answer to that is "yes", by the way).

And if you disagree, then answer me this: What content in the game, to date, has been impossible to defeat without an official parser being present?

(the only correct answer to that is "none of it", by the way).

A follow-up question.. How would a parser make it any easier to do so? What would you glean from that data?

Aren't people - those who care enough to want a parser in the first place - doing that anyway? Isn't that what the gear climb is all about? Isn't that what the tomestone farming and repetitive dungeon grind is all for? Isn't that why people experiment and try out different rotations? Isn't that why people get the BIS gear, to make the content easier to defeat?

Is knowing a definitive number to be reached going to change the process by which a player attains it? No. You're just going to do the same thing you've been doing already.... and that's been working.

Is a parser going to add anything to the game that isn't do-able and being done already? No, it isn't.

And all the while... the content is being cleared. But that's not enough. It's not good enough until everything is broken down to numbers and min/max and "optimal" this and "most efficient" that.

And then, when all the content is broken down to the 4th decimal place... people can complain that MMOs feel too much like a second job, or an endless grind, and aren't fun. I wonder why that could be? I wonder if them treating it like a second job and endless grind, and not being able to just enjoy clearing the content, because "they don't know the numbers" could have anything to do with that?

I wonder.

So, for those who continue to argue and fight for an in-game parser... I realize you're going to continue anyway. Because numbers are really all that matter to you. I get it. But, at least be honest about it, and stop trying to portray it as something that's "needed" or somehow "missing" from the game. It's neither.

[tjw]

-snip-

I think, if you actually read through all 60 pages of the thread, that the pro-parser crowd aren't just focused on DPS numbers. It's a pretty big generalisation to clump the pro-parser crowd as such.

[Morningstar1337]

And then, when all the content is broken down to the 4th decimal place... people can complain that MMOs feel too much like a second job, or an endless grind, and aren't fun. I wonder why that could be? I wonder if them treating it like a second job and endless grind, and not being able to just enjoy clearing the content, because "they don't know the numbers" could have anything to do with that?

I wonder.

As a rule of thumb to all players, never underestimate people's ability to generalize 2 groups of people (one asking for certain changes, the other complaining when those changes actually are implemented) into one group of hypocrites

[Archaell]

...

What about us who don't care much about the numbers themselves, but seek equal responsibility and accountability when it comes to group efforts?

[Whiteroom]

All that in mind, I have a serious question to ask in response... Simple yes or no question:

Have people not been clearing all that content without a (official) parser?

(the only correct answer to that is "yes", by the way).
No, actually they have not. And you will see why, despite phrasing the question the way you did. (Hint: The real questions are: "Are people clearing the content at a reasonable ratio for the difficulty?" and, "Do people have to work extra hard to carry those who don't care through content?" and "Is it acceptable behaviour to join a team and not do close to your part?")

And if you disagree, then answer me this: What content in the game, to date, has been impossible to defeat without an official parser being present?

(the only correct answer to that is "none of it", by the way).A follow-up question.. How would a parser make it any easier to do so? What would you glean from that data?
Really answered below, but you will see that that is actually not a question you cannot be answered anyway but theoretically. To your follow up, does that actually need to be explained, go back and read the thread, since there is 60 pages, it is probably answered about 120 times in this thread alone.

Aren't people - those who care enough to want a parser in the first place - doing that anyway? Isn't that what the gear climb is all about? Isn't that what the tomestone farming and repetitive dungeon grind is all for? Isn't that why people experiment and try out different rotations? Isn't that why people get the BIS gear, to make the content easier to defeat?
1. Well no.
2. The gear climb is about vertical progression, nothing more.
3. Same as 2
4. How do they find out the which rotation is the optimal one again? (Hint: the answer is they use parsers and run the numbers on each rotation until they know.)
5. How do they find BIS again? (Hint: The answer is, they uses parsers with a set rotation and change gear and do the same rotation, a lot of times until they know what the benefit of each stat weight is, and they figure out from there.)

Is knowing a definitive number to be reached going to change the process by which a player attains it? No. You're just going to do the same thing you've been doing already.... and that's been working.
Well yes, because that has already happened. And no, with the amount of clear failures, it is not happening enough, look for some of the discrepancies between dps in different content people have shown, it is very common for one dps to be doing 200-300 and another doing 1000, and this is in current end game content, with all players above level 60. Is this reasonable? To put those numbers in perspective, a DRG in 190 everything excpet, 180 weapon, 180 Chest, and 180 ring, does just over 600 on a striking dummy using only True thrust, Vorpal Thrust, Full thrust, no buffs or procs, just those three attacks.

Is a parser going to add anything to the game that isn't do-able and being done already? No, it isn't.
Parsers are the reason that it has been doable so far, so yes, and yes above that since it will allow everyone the opportunity to improve using an actual metric.

And all the while... the content is being cleared. But that's not enough. It's not good enough until everything is broken down to numbers and min/max and "optimal" this and "most efficient" that.
Well, as the content is around longer, it should probably be beat on a more regular basis. Also, you don't need to min/max to beat the majority of the content in this game, and stuff like BEX is still not cleared with that much reliability.

And then, when all the content is broken down to the 4th decimal place... people can complain that MMOs feel too much like a second job, or an endless grind, and aren't fun. I wonder why that could be? I wonder if them treating it like a second job and endless grind, and not being able to just enjoy clearing the content, because "they don't know the numbers" could have anything to do with that?
Well a parser is reliable within 5-10 points, not to the 4th decimal place. Also, nobody has asked anyone to be world first quality, the bar that seem to be asked for most, when people are pressed is around 70% of optimal, which is very easy. And not unreasonable to ask as a good tank can out dps a lot of DF parties.

I wonder.

So, for those who continue to argue and fight for an in-game parser... I realize you're going to continue anyway. Because numbers are really all that matter to you. I get it. But, at least be honest about it, and stop trying to portray it as something that's "needed" or somehow "missing" from the game. It's neither.
The above answers respond to this

So now, a couple questions for you:

Why do you find it acceptable to join a team and under preform?

Have you ever read a thread teaching optimal class rotations and/or used a BIS list? Have you ever watched a video guide?
All of these things were figured out using info from parsers, so if you have used any of them, or even learned a rotation from someone who used them, you have benefited from parsers.

Given that they are that tied into the community, all content, especially anything that at any point was end game, was defeated using information from parsers, you can only speak theoretically on if it was beatable without them.

Since we're on the discussion of parsers. i found a discussion on r/ffxiv (The subreddit community for this game, so take this with a pinch of salt) where the OP asked if the alleged ban on parsers is counterproductive fulling the arrogance it is supposed to curb, with many of the redditors there claiming that the answer is yes because it allows people to lie and say "Hey I do great DPS its the tanks/healers/other DPS fault we blew that DPS check" when in reality they were the BLM using Blizzard III and Scathe constantly...

That thread was actually linked in this thread and the "Parsers for PS4" thread.

Interesting and relevant reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ly_preventing/

[Morningstar1337]

What about us who don't care much about the numbers themselves, but seek equal responsibility and accountability when it comes to group efforts?

In fairness most DPS have rotations that are easy to memorize, but that only applies to Casters (and yes Ranged DPS counts at this point), melee on the other hand has positional, however both aspects are subtle, it's easier to see the Mana bar of a BLM and them using too many Fires/Blizzards than it it to see a MNK using Bootshine from the flank. The tells of bad DPS are as subtle as the tells for good poker players, there are other factors; AoEs, deaths, latency and boss invincibility periods that make it hard to preform optimally and hard for people to notice when they are preforming suboptimaly, but I guess that would stop people like you person you respondied to from claiming that they need to git gud at finding these tells anyway and blame them "having to resort to parsers to find something as obvious as that"

Since we're on the discussion of parsers. i found a discussion on r/ffxiv (The subreddit community for this game, so take this with a pinch of salt) where the OP asked if the alleged ban on parsers is counterproductive fulling the arrogance it is supposed to curb, with many of the redditors there claiming that the answer is yes because it allows people to lie and say "Hey I do great DPS its the tanks/healers/other DPS fault we blew that DPS check" when in reality they were the BLM using Blizzard III and Scathe constantly and didn't have Enochian up at all while the MNK and DRG were properly positioned and repositioned, the SMN reset the DoTs effectually and the other BLM kept Enochian up all time and used Fire I, III (proc'd) and IV effectively, and the Tank pretty much solo tanks without a death before this point, and no one would be the wiser because they were too busy with tunnelvision on the mechanic (cept maybe the healers with <mo> macros, since they can see the cast bars in this case). Granted this is sort of an extreme example of one bad in a party with 7 Lucrezia tier players (an with a DPS in place of a 2nd tank ona boss where the DPS checkes required 5 DPS at least), but the point still stands.

[Archaell]

...

We don't have to look at extreme situations to see how fast are players willing to blame others for their own shortcoming - just do enough roulette runs.

I have been learning the game as a healer and I got in several situations where I was blamed for problems that were not entirely my fault, without having knowledge or proof to defend myself.

Like going oom in Brayflox when dps was low. Being blamed for "final sting" in Temple of Qarn, when tank and dps used interrupts as dmg skills instead of interrupts. Or getting flamed in Garuda Normal when undergeared tank died in one hit.

On the other side we have dps players who are more than happy to complain about your skill while being protected by the lack of evidence for their own.

I don't care about min/maxing, I am not fan of speed running, but I totally hate this inequality when it comes to the roles.

This is the reason why I support official parser.