The issue nobody wants to address

[Whiteroom]

Oh i havent followed them to know that much about them. But as a PS4 player myself knowing what the outcome of my rotation is would be welcome. I can see both sides of the arguement though. I dont know exactly how these things work but I PVP and our shit is pretty much out in the open at the end of the match and nobody really says much about low #'s.

Yeah. On PS4 too. Only recently have we had people join my FC using parsers. While on a few classes, I have been able to use those people to help me improve or confirm. It really amounts to me hasseling them to run content or sit at a dummy with me. Which isnt fair to them. Right now, I really feel I could use one for my SMN, but I don't know.

The reasons against them are iffy to me.
Yes there would be some added people flipping about numbers.
A lot of the abusive people would just be those who are already abusive, using the numbers to do so, so no increase from that crowd.
People would misread them.

I think having a metric for troubleshooting and personal improvement far outweighs these though. Especially in a dps reliant enviorment like ours.

As far as misreading, maybe a quick tutorial on them, built into the game would help a little. Dunno though. These threads are proof that people only see what they want.

[Jynx]

A Personal parser on the training dummy would give players all the tools they need to tweak and refine their skillset without requiring unwanted "Coaching" from outside parties. If they are going to implement it in a party situation to be fair it would need to be a party finder setting making is easy to see that you are opting in for a parse in a local server setting and not with random people you will never see again. (Not duty finder you would fragment the player pool on both ends, note everyone who doesn't want to be parsed is a slackjawed DPS).

But seriously a training dummy is all people require to have the tools to improve themselves. I get that PS4 players don't have access to parsers like PC players do and that's why a training dummy would be the best option it's personal, private, it's something anyone can access in a pressure free environment.

[Sirius-Khan]

Training dummy parse would be a nice addition. You would think the dummys@the wolf's den would give us a parse being that it's implemented in that part of the game.

[Whiteroom]

But seriously a training dummy is all people require to have the tools to improve themselves. I get that PS4 players don't have access to parsers like PC players do and that's why a training dummy would be the best option it's personal, private, it's something anyone can access in a pressure free environment.

Training dummies are a small step in the right direction. They allow a single person to test on a single target, in a situation you never really run into in an actual instance. But right now, I for example, am leveli g SMN, an AOE class. It doesn't do a ton for me. Also dummies are all for theory, best for teaching yourself a rotation down to muscle memory once you pick one.


Because of this, and because of the lack of ability to compare to others in a real action scenario, it severly cripples the effectiveness of it. As I have stated before in this thread, I myself thrive when I run into a player of the same class, in similar gear, out preforming me.

Not that I think individual stories are great, but I've seen all these "this one time I ran into an a-hole that I think was parsing" stories, so I'll tell a flip side.

Somewhat recently, a couple people in my FC started parsing themselves in secret. Before this, you could tell they weren't performing greatly, and it showed in their confidence. Both in to joining when asked to come along, and their interactions. Since then, they have become some of our strongest members and there is a noticable improvement in thier confidence in game. It makes me happy to see this from them.

Not saying everyone flourishes with them, but not everyone performing poorly is some kind of a disabled, or troll who is incapible of improving.

[MentheusDreyar]

Official parsers WILL lead to more elitism and that WILL be directed at new or inexperienced players, more often that lazy ones.

Most of the evidence supports the opposite actually. And while it might initially increase, when all these under performing players see they can't get carried for free anymore and are forced to put in effort into group content then overall level will decrease or stay roughly the same as it is now at worst.

And once again no one is out to get new players, its the lv 50+ players who should know how to play their jobs way before then that we are targeting. Any one targeting a new player would have done so with or without a parser

It's just this community is so god damn sensitive to any form of feedback or criticism you can be certain practically all of the toxicity from that fact is generated by the anti-parser crowd at this point and not anyone using a parser or the so called "elitist".

It doesn't stop you leaving the group and finding a better one or using the Vote Kick system.

The current system is total crap imo, so after the first kick chances are I would have to take a penalty because of other players not playing to even the GAMES basic expectation. You wonder why people AFK in dungeons and hope to get kicked? Especially tanks and healer? Because it's totally unfair on us the performing players to get penalized because of other people.

[Urthdigger]

Yes, I will admit, I would use a parser to judge people. Because when a party is wiping again and again on content, unable to clear it due to not meeting DPS checks, I would rather kick the ONE person just slamming their fists on the keyboard rather than disbanding and making everyone fail. I've seen this on Bismarck EX, Ravana hard, Aery, Qarn hard... all over the place. Especially when it's the second or third boss on a dungeon, to tell everyone to just give up and go home with nothing because one person is just spamming their level 1 ability instead of comboing.

But apparently that makes me an asshole.

I can do that without a parser, true, and I do attempt to do so when DPS checks aren't being met. but I doubt me eyeballing the chat log is as accurate as a program noting down the damage everyone has done. Especially if I'm trying to heal and DPS just in case a miracle happens and those of us actually playing can eke out a flawless routine and grasp victory by the skin of our teeth.

Sometimes a player is AFK off to the side and it's easy to see. Other times it's less obvious, like if they're still hitting the monster but doing no combos. Sometimes it's 8-man content and I can't keep an eye on everyone, especially if I'm trying to do my own job.

This isn't about speedruns. Hell, I don't think any of the pro-parser people have brought up speedruns. This isn't about yelling at people for being 10 DPS below the other person. This is about easily identifying players who are keeping a group from finishing a run so advice can be given, or more likely so they can be kicked because DPS are special snowflakes who should never be advised under any situation, and they are ever so happy to remind me of the fact every time one does poorly.

[MentheusDreyar]

Yes, I will admit, I would use a parser to judge people. Because when a party is wiping again and again on content, unable to clear it due to not meeting DPS checks, I would rather kick the ONE person just slamming their fists on the keyboard rather than disbanding and making everyone fail. I've seen this on Bismarck EX, Ravana hard, Aery, Qarn hard... all over the place. Especially when it's the second or third boss on a dungeon, to tell everyone to just give up and go home with nothing because one person is just spamming their level 1 ability instead of comboing.

But apparently that makes me an asshole.

I can do that without a parser, true, and I do attempt to do so when DPS checks aren't being met. but I doubt me eyeballing the chat log is as accurate as a program noting down the damage everyone has done. Especially if I'm trying to heal and DPS just in case a miracle happens and those of us actually playing can eke out a flawless routine and grasp victory by the skin of our teeth.

Sometimes a player is AFK off to the side and it's easy to see. Other times it's less obvious, like if they're still hitting the monster but doing no combos. Sometimes it's 8-man content and I can't keep an eye on everyone, especially if I'm trying to do my own job.

This isn't about speedruns. Hell, I don't think any of the pro-parser people have brought up speedruns. This isn't about yelling at people for being 10 DPS below the other person. This is about easily identifying players who are keeping a group from finishing a run so advice can be given, or more likely so they can be kicked because DPS are special snowflakes who should never be advised under any situation, and they are ever so happy to remind me of the fact every time one does poorly.

100% agree this is pretty much the view from all the pro parser crowd.

When you're failing content, and tbh piss easy content at that even with overgeared players there is something definitely wrong with the majority of the community. This in-ability to even do simple things is what pisses everyone off. The game is NOT hard except on Savage, its pathetically easy in most other area's.

[dank1]

Wow... I don't know where you got that drivel but that's so far from true it's disturbing. Near all content, when first unlocked, tells you rather directly to beat it through Duty Finder. The exceptions, and these are exceptions, are raids like Coil or Savage Alexander and the recent extreme primals. Everything else has been unlocked through a quest that leads to Duty Finder. So yes, Duty Finder is officially stated as a tool for new players.

I'd like you to know that it isn't "nearly all" content being initially released in the DF if we want to point technicalities we can add up every piece of content kept out of the DF at first and it might almost add up to what is added to the DF upon release, still that doesnt change the fact that just by SE keeping even any part of content out of DF means that the DF isnt supposed to be a learning ground, i will settle though with saying the level 1-50 or maybe even 1-59 dungeons serve as a learning ground themselves but once past that should at least know your basic rotation. Not knowing mechanics is fine, but ASK.

I think that is a really big question, I had a little thought on it today, unfortunately it would take forever and a day to write down. Some of it is social, some not. I would say it comes from a lot of different factors. One of the main being the social movement I touched on earlier in the thread, "The everyone gets an award" movement.

I also think a lot of it has to do with the way the game was developed. Specifically Duty Roulettes and Relic Quests, and the Tomestone system.
I'm tired here and don't want to write all the fine points as it was a passing thought, and not fleshed out. Please keep that in mind.

By this I mean there was a problem. All MMOs face it. The bulk of players have made their way through the early content. Now new players will have to wait forever to queue for dungeons, leading to dissatisfaction and quitting the game. Being able to level alt classes helps this.

But it is not enough. So you tack on daily roulette bonuses, people still leveling get a sweet chunk of exp in turn for filling out those lower level queues that need filling. Not so bad, most are still leveling, so dungeons are not played out yet.

Now we face the problem not only of keeping the newer dungeons full, but keeping people busy between patches. Insert Tomestone farming and bonuses. I for example will have run the two new dungeons a minimum of around 100 times by the time 3.1 hits. Yes, I am tired of them. But Daily roulette is the quickest way for me to get the tomes to gear up anyone of the 5 and soon to be 7 classes I have at 60.

Now we are still facing long queue times, so we insert some Relic Quest RNG runs! I'm sure that sends shivers down some spines. I ran into one person on their 42nd run of Sastasha HM. And I've read of people having 70-100 runs of a single dungeon for a drop!

Well before the time you get through this, almost everyone is in speed run mode. The faster you run, the faster you finish, the more you finish, the quicker you get your drop. The quicker you get your drop, the quicker you move on to the next. Even without that, you are sick of the dungeon, and want to get them over with, and you know it inside out.

On top of all this, you have your hard to get drops from all other places, like your CT and soon to be Void Ark runs. You need to get onto those drops! It has been beat and abused and conditioned into us over the years of gaming!

So, at some point, some start flipping out at the slow players, while most just put their head down and drag them through it. There is less helping people, and more dragging. People think they are doing fine and dandy because, from the first time they went through, things were going fine, they never had to perfect the mechanics and their rotations, as there was consistently people who were overgeared and had run the dungeon tons of times, facerolling everything in their path. Either way, its harder to learn.

So now you haven't had to give it your all in dps checks, as you were being carried, you think everything's fine because of the same, and there is no metric to confirm or disprove this belief. Now, queue for BEX.

Of course, this idea is not fully fleshed out, and I'm tired, so I think I missed a large connection I made in the middle, earlier, but I am tired, and it's thanksgiving up here, so I had a couple earlier. So I'll leave the above nonsense for clearer heads right now.

But something along the lines of the devs solution to one problem, helped create another. Their solution coupled with the whole, everything must be a grind mentality, causes carries.

I wholeheartedly agree with it coming from the free cookies for everyone! Thought process and while I will say IRL I am a liberal and all that other stuff, this is a video game not IRL (hehe using that same excuse feels so gud) you don't NEED that token, althought I'm all for everyone who participated getting loot, best believe because I acknowledge this is just a game and you don't NEED that piece of loot/token you'll be kicked.....

Sadly though I will be honest and say 9/10 cases people arent kicked because of your next idea, I do the grind too much and it's a lot longer to extend it by arguing with someone who just doesnt care... It is a losing battle with players increasingly getting carried through it all. The little "this was my fastest run ever" compliments help a bit but more often than not don't happen.
At this point there really isn't anything I can do at an individual level to help players improve but hope that it really just is because people are ignorant to their performance, maybe just maybe being constantly reminded about their numbers will let these people know "ok that other ninja in my group or every nin in my group outperforms me, why?" And improve somehow.

[Elazu]

Interesting and relevant reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ly_preventing/

[Whiteroom]

snip

Regarding that next part of my idea. It isn't meant to be a definable reason for kicking people. It is simply something that lends to the culture you asked about in your first post. The whole issue is a culture thing within ffxivs community. Is it affected by outside influences, yes, for sure. But the things that make it "our" issue, come from the way the game is designed and played.

Of course, I do view the lack of a parser as a huge enabler of this whole thing as well.

I'm sure there are other influences, like the way DF is cross-server and the anonimity that you gain there. Also, I don't think North Americas "I want it NOW!" Mentality mixes well at all with the extreme grind. But like I said, it's not a fully fleshed out idea yet.

Interesting and relevant reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ly_preventing/

Interesting thread, I would like to see an even bigger sampling, and from different content as well, but thats asking a bit too much of the poster.
I wonder how the responses in this thread might change if they introduced an in game parser for a couple of weeks and people got to see just how varied the dps numbers are, and that its not just a spread of 800-1000 but more like 200-1200 dps.