My thinking about Alex normal/savage. Issue IMHO inside

[Bernelli]

I'm not sure why you think raiding is in a poor state it's similar to 2.x.

I don't raid with my FC and have only done T1-5 of coil and missed the story in it.

hurf durf

Wrong. The most common complaints is that A3S is both poorly designed and is also a brick wall that destroys statics. Including groups that did SCOB savage.

[Saccharin]

Why not tell me that try to be a smart arse. Well?

[Nicobo]

IMO all the problem is the word RAID ^^;

[Evtrai]

Even if raiding is done by a small amount of people. That's silly.

Seasonal events are done by more players than raiding so wouldn't it make more sense to spend resources on those than raiders who are a very small minority?

There is a reason why you only get a small amount of bosses. It's intentional.

Just because you, your mate, and your FC raid doesn't mean everyone else does.

The only reason I did seasonal events was because I was bored out of my brains. And it's not real content.

[Greven]

Just to add infos: players were heavily annoyed by trash mobs in Coils, that is one of the reasons they minimized them in Alex. So it really can't be helped as even inside the riders minority they asked to get rid of trashes. Yoshi/Devs talked about it in an old LL too but I honestly don't keep track of them.

[Colorful]

Just to add infos: players were heavily annoyed by trash mobs in Coils, that is one of the reasons they minimized them in Alex. So it really can't be helped as even inside the riders minority they asked to get rid of trashes. Yoshi/Devs talked about it in an old LL too but I honestly don't keep track of them.

People were annoyed because the Coils are Trials with trash and that makes little sense. If it was a continuous raid the trash would actually make sense, as you're raiding a large area, but when it comes to coil you're just invading segments of the overall thing while skipping out on the unimportant parts (I think they're important as they could provide some real nice scenery and a journey to something is always nice, just compare Ulduar to Binding Coil...). Also the trash was worthless, make it so "trash" is challenging and drops some loot, why do we follow the standard set by Blizzard that trash has to be completely mindless with a few AoEs?

[Azazua_azura]

A quick question op, what other MMo have you played since 1997 that you could bring examples of? only mmo you mentioned was WoW.

Also, the point of Alex normal was so the majority could see the story, as that was a big let down from coil. It was never meant to be super hard, or take a long time to clear. Consider Alex lite raiding, I see it as a good steping stone for new to mmo players, or MMO players who are not used to this type of content.

A bit of info about myself, I'm 30 years old with 27 years of gaming under my belt. I got into MMO in 2004, My main mmo was ff11 but i tried WoW, Aion and tons of f2p ones. The longest mmo i stuck with was FF11. I'm personally am not used to post WoW mmo, and i have been playing ff14 on and off since 1.0 (due to personal issues). I think Content like Alex normal, is good for people not used raid type content, or those new to mmo.

Difficaulty is EXTREMELY subjective in the gaming world, easy content for you is hard content for another. I still see people wipe on alex normal, bismark extreme, and other content. I fully agree for more content you like, and understand you are not used to this style of set up. I'm personally not used to this type of raiding, or way of getting gear, so I fully enjoyed alex as a way to ease into it.

FF11 raid system was extremely different, you joined end game LS's to do certain content. One would be for HNM, one would by for sky, one would be for dynamis etc. Dynamis being an instence raid which u paid gil to run. (unless it changed) it was each city state in some nightmare realm and you killed all this beastmen to get coins, gear and fought a mega boss. I never raided in any post WoW mmo so ff14 the first.

The type of raid ur after is savage mode alex and the 24 man stuff, just sad ppl don't really do that as a fc most i know do it in df.

Anyway that my 2 cents if it don't makes sence sorry, im not feeling to well.

[Dererk]

Just to add infos: players were heavily annoyed by trash mobs in Coils, that is one of the reasons they minimized them in Alex. So it really can't be helped as even inside the riders minority they asked to get rid of trashes. Yoshi/Devs talked about it in an old LL too but I honestly don't keep track of them.

Make them drop mats make them drop chests that have a chance of giving you a gear piece from that raid trash dose not have to be boring and annoying. They keep doing things to make old content relevant atma fates....books....preaty much the whole zodiac quest line they forced people to do this stuff to make them relevant so why not make bigger rewarding raids.

[Mature]

ALEX normal is the BEST thing that happened to HW. It kinda overshadows the fact that you don't need an static or beg people to help you. You just join the raid with a bunch of people and get on with it. It kinda as well makes people be at the same level equally. I am pleased with this and hopefully it will carry on all the way thru future patches.

[Duelle]

On point. I think it's fine. Personally, trash pulls in raids are moot, they don't drop anything worthwhile. I've played since launch and have totally embraced the way trials are designed; Boss there, destroy boss, get loot.

The thing is that if we are to get bigger raids, trash is sort of necessary for the sake of pacing and making the space feel "lived in" for lack of better terms. Not to mention you can make trash challenging (Faust sort of proved this; if you want another example, the spark guardians in Ulduar are another good use of trash). Trash in WoW also provided zone drops, which at the moment sadly don't happen here because loot comes from treasure chests instead of from mobs.

As far as the OP goes, he makes a good point. The issue was also brought up back in ARR when people started complaining about how they could clear Coil 1-5 in one night and have nothing to do the rest of the week. And as the OP mentions, in WoW a standard raid took about 2 or 3 raid nights to clear once you got it on farm. More if you were working on specific fights or trying to achievements/hard modes (specially Uldaur, since progression would get real for stuff like Firefighter and 0 lights Yogg). Part of it was the sheer number of bosses, part of it was the size of the instance, and part of it was how the content was tuned.

For WoW players, what they did in FFXIV is make every raid basically the Argent Tournament. I particularly had no problems with Argent Tournament since it was a change of pace from Naxxrammas and Ulduar (which were massive environments), but even I would have a problem if every raid was designed like it. This is where variety in raid design is supposed to kick in.

A quick question op, what other MMo have you played since 1997 that you could bring examples of? only mmo you mentioned was WoW.

There's not much I would want to take from older MMOs when it comes to raid design. City of Heroes had Task Forces that took around 4+ hours in one sitting to complete (good chunk of it involving running around). Lineage II had one-room encounters with massive bosses like Antharas the Earth Dragon (which when implemented would still wipe a 500-man raid due to sheer AoE damage, stuns and so on). A good part of the older stuff boiled down to "boss deals a ton of damage with no real mechanics", which I'm not too fond of.