Lets nerf WAR :D

[Kaisersoke]

im not assuming anything, you only have warrior to 60, and thus you only have experience in savage, as a warrior. for sure. i dont see how anything is assumptious about that. i pretty much agree with you about tanking not being about tanking anymore. its not really fun, which is why i opt out of it, but its not realistic for them to buff two classes in leui of nerfing one that is obviously overly strong. itd be more likely to throw off balance even more,eventually, like you said, breaking raids. whether warriors like it or not, its a toxic endgame to have this much power and utility on the shoulders of one job, and warriors are only going to get more powerful with scaling this expac, which will only increase the current gap between tanks. you cant want balance and not be open to change (buffing or nerfing) , the two are mutually exclusive

[shao32]

im complete agree whit you kaiser, i was WAR from the 2.1 when they get buffed, and play paladin too, when heavenswards come out and see the DRK and PLD WAR new skills i see something wrong, now im MT DRK and i play WAR in lvl 60 to.

i don't know how devs think about the tank trinity are now, but PLD and DRK are desing to be MT, well all jobs can be MT but DRK and PLD are suppose to be the best choice for this in magical and physical place, and WAR be the OT whit they high tank dps and storm path and eye.

reallity? WAR after 2.1 come very strong and they changes are designed to be the perfect OT for a paladin and they can tank most of the raid boses because WAR has the best active defensives, paladin only won in this from they pasive mitigation and the perfect hallowed. now a new tank come, and they nerf parry and det so they pasive mitigation and ofensive from paladin come nerf in general terms but war get more strong whit this, RI is the perfect parry skill, and they short coldowns from equilibrium makes a huge mitigation arsenal more when paladin can't heal imself when MT.
yoshi say PLD dont get any dps buff, thats is fine for me, but WAR still have better active mitigation vs a PLD.

mi personal opinion PLD and DRK are fine, they need some adjust but in general are fine, WAR have a high dps busrt, not only single target, you can berseker whit decimate too, and mitigate very close to PLD whit no problem, so i think WAR deserve a nerf in some aspect, NOTHING SERIOUS, but a nerf in defensive, the high dps dilema come only from the vit vs str accesories.

sorry for mi bad english

[Disc]

Quoted figures are incorrect WAR tank stance penalty is penalty 12%, PLD tank stance penalty is also 12% not 20%, they completely forgot about FoF. DRK stance penalty is correct though.

As opposed to what? Their unbuffed base damage that they should never be doing?

Assume Base = everything excluding Sh/SwOath, Grit, Darkside, Bloodweapon, Defiance, & Deliverance

PLD Base = Roughly 7947 potency
PLD SwOath = Base+1440 potency; Roughly 18% damage increase over Base, or 118% of Base as Max.
PLD ShOath = 80% of Base damage, a 20% loss. Or [1-(0.80(ShOath))/1.18(Max))]*100 = 32.2%
Therefore Shield Oath is a 32.2% DPS loss compared to PLDs maximum damage in SwOath.

DRK Base = 1
Darkside = 1*1.15*1.0375(Bloodweapon); A roughly 19% increase over Base, or 119% of Base as Max.(ignoring BW MP bonus)
Darkside+ Grit = 1*1.15*0.80 = 0.92; An 8% decrease from Base or [1-(0.92(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 22.7%
Therefore DRK loses 22.7% of Max DPS by turning Grit on, ignoring Bloodweapon TP/MP bonuses.
No Darkside + Grit = 1*0.8 = 0.8; A 20% decrease from Base or [1-(0.80(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 32.8%
Therefore DRK loses 32.8% of Max DPS if Darkside drops while Grit is up. Actually more if it's down when certain abilities are off CD.

WAR Base = 1
Deliverance = 1*1.05; A 12.5% increase over Base, or 112.5% of Base as Max.(Crit bonus assumed [(.00+.02+.04+.06+.08+.10)/6)1.5] = 7.5% for simplicity)
Defiance = 1*0.75; A 25% decrease from Base, or [1-(0.75(Defiance)/1.125(Max))]*100 = 33.3%
However Unchained = Base 16.6% of the time.
0.3333(Defiance Loss)*.8334(%time without unchained)+[1-(1(Base)/1.125(Max))]*.1666(time with unchained) = 29.6%
Therefore WAR loses roughly 29.6% of Max DPS if Defiance is up, ignoring the higher potency abilities of Deliverance.

Feel free to correct my math, it's past 3AM for me. The initial poster was on the right track, but holy hell there's so much misinformation going on about tank stances. FoF, Darkside, Berserk, etc do not get to count against tank stance when you have access to them out of tank stance. 1*0.8 & 1000*0.8 are both going to see a 20% loss. Yes this could potentially be offset by ability timing lining up with buffs like Unchained and/or breaks during ability down time. Those variables would be specific to certain fights, and average out in theory. If you would like to simulate 10 minute rotations by fight that might be interesting to see. However, that still will not change the 0.80 modifier on stances.

[kensatsu]

the dps problem come from vita/force accesories ? it's not a problem actualy, don't complain about dps if you don't wear them and think a other tank is doing amazing damages. this make a big difference in the dps result
but it come from the storm eyes debuff also and the penaly is not the same when we swap tank/dps stance, the war swap cost nothing, but the pld one at least a gcd (i think it's not correct here if it cost nothing to the war, it need to cost nothing to the dark and the pld)
SE say the difference between a war and a dark dps is the storm eyes debuff (it's 15% anyway), the pld is behind the dark in dps, because of the defense focus of the class.
But there others issue, Tp usage, swap ect... and the fact the dps stance of the war replace inner beast by felt cleave, the war gain some dps here because when the others tank swap them don't have any change, dark or pld don't change a 290 potency skill for a 500 potency one.
The war can manage tank buster without problem, if them have a problem it would be annoying like in 2.0 ^^, but maybe it need some tweaks to be behind the others tank in defense.

[shao32]

yoshi say PLD lower dps best mitigation, i know the dps diference in tanks jobs come from they skills.

when i say dps problem come from accesories is the actual high tank dps, more when many ppl say devs and yoshi want vit tanks in the game (i dont know if this is true).
FOR EXAMPLE (thats not mean i say this is a "solution"): if they block str accesories to MNK and DRG, and nerf the tank dps force to use fending and make tank dps "less irrelevant" one problem less, well not really the ppl how love tank dps go to enrage and threat devs to leave the game for this and bla bla bla.

is a radical mode to end dps dilema from tanks, war still have the best dps but not so close vs bard and machinist and dont fight or insult other fro they accesories choices, i see much hate from both sides in this forum, this is only and example to dps skills from tanks dont really need to be change for balancing the trinity.

[Snowy_Mist]

^

Hard to understand but if i'm hearing right a lot of people might not have as much fun if tanks dps get so nerfed it makes not difference to enrage checks.
Also on the end part if a tank is getting close to an equal item level dps's dps then its the dps player skill level being subpar. And tanks only use str dps accessories and if either of the str dps are parsing really close to your war (being monk and drg) then that shows their lack of skill. I out parse df dps with my lv 60 pld doesn't mean pld is overpowered now does it.

Also in terms of ot dps, my pld with my static ninja applying de 100%uptime did only 80 less dps than my main warrior(with eso wep vs pld's hive) on a 2:30 dummy, before i ran out of tp on my paladin. I had no tp issues when i went as warrior obviously but the dps difference is highly overrrated.

I think the biggest issue here is that SE is probably going to fix is the enmity modifiers for RoH and shield swipes potency to counter the tp starvation

[kensatsu]

Yeah i see what you mean, some PLD say something like i am tired that war have 50% more dps than pld, that's not true, exept if the war is wearing force/vit accesories and the PLD wearing Vit accesories. I don't insult for the choice or something, but it count if the dps difference is so big, blame the accesories XD.
Just keep in mind when you are stuff enough, you can get rid of 1000 hp for 155 of forces at least atm with the 150 accesories, i respect any of your choice, but there no avantage to keep 1000 HP for 155 of forces, that's why some tanks doing that, and you can't compare dps from a tank wearing vita/force and a tank wearing vit.
Now do you need this to fight against the enrage ? that the question

[NFaelivrin]

Did you even bother looking at the parse? Their tank dps was the same or not less than any other top tier groups using different comps. No, I think it is the other way around. Clearly you are a delusional PLD. You keep insisting that WAR is overpowered, yet there are DRKs out there that are doing around the same amount of damage(given they have the slashing debuff). Hey so I guess since WAR should receive a nerf, DRK should as well so that they are both in line with PLD?

(given they have the slashing debuff).

You just answered your own question. But I'll elaborate: It's an overall raid DPS loss for anybody but a WAR to provide the slashing debuff. You do seem to have taken it incredibly personally that I pointed out that Warrior is so powerful that 2xWAR is so viable as to 7man A3S with it and not even care about LB penalty from stacking classes. Maybe one day people in this forum will stop taking suggestions of nerfs to their main class as personal offenses to their honor. Haha who am I kidding, some people base their entire self-worth on the class they play in a videogame.

[kensatsu]

so if i understand what you say you want every tank to get the slashing debuff or you want the war don't slashing debuff anymore, so you want dragoon don't piersing debuff anymore and ninja don't slashing debuff anymore , just because you don't want any class to have group buff, because you want every class is doing the same.
I would be glad the dark and the pld got a other debuff. instead or remove this one
What you point is right why pld and dark have one debuff, when war have 2. but here is more Up the dark and pld purpose and not nerfing the war

[NFaelivrin]

so if i understand what you say you want every tank to get the slashing debuff or you want the war don't slashing debuff anymore, so you want dragoon don't piersing debuff anymore and ninja don't slashing debuff anymore , just because you don't want any class to have group buff, because you want every class is doing the same.
I would be glad the dark and the pld got a other debuff. instead or remove this one

No, what I'm saying is that Warrior is the only tank in the game with a kit so lacking in weaknesses that it doesn't need any outside support in order to reach its maximum potential besides a healer. While PLD and DRK require outside help in the form of the slashing debuff, and in the case of PLD, might even need NIN Shadewalker in order to hold aggro in Sword Oath without relying on Halone spam (a major DPS loss vs. Royal Authority spam), Warrior can basically waltz into any raid composition and fit perfectly, it doesn't become weaker if another class is missing, it doesn't even need outside sources of TP restore very much because it can restore its own TP and has the lowest single target TP consumption of any class that actually uses this resource, so while PLD and DRKs reach the 3 minute mark screaming for Goad, need somebody to provide slashing debuff for them, might in the case of PLD require outside assistance with aggro to maximize their DPS, etc. WAR can basically function independently. Nevermind the fact that WAR is so strong its practically mandatory for any half-serious raid statics. The class is overpowered and while one might disagree on how to fix this, the unwillingness to acknowledge this from people who play it is pitiful to behold.