More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

What? XD anyway you were saying earlier that content and top tier gear should be for those that put the time in, not casual players. Honestly, I am quite content logging in 3-4 hours a week, clearing a savage boss, doing some pvp, a couple expert roulettes and get my gear thank you, the eff I'd want to dump hours upon hours for the same rewards I received easily.
If you like to dump that much time into a game, find one that better suits you, or eff it, get paid for it by making your own instead of trying to argue this game needs it.

Yes, and I find that extremely boring.

I don't think this game does need it. This game is way too much like other games. FFXIV, is just taking things from other games and polishing it. The reason I play mostly now is just the role-play. Which.. really is bad.

FFXIV cannot change. Nore will it. Nore do the developers of it need to change it. Its an "Ok" game.

I should not change the fun of someone else for my own. You find it fun, people find it fun. So it shouldn't change.

And there you are with the inflammatory speech. Please understand that I'm being respectful to you and if there's misinterpretation here, I apologize.

You're showing levels of playing that could be considered unhealthy, actually. Again, playing games obsessively, which could be the impression shown by your hours, may not be an indicator that you are the type of person the developers should appeal to, but rather of the habitual levels of the game that fall outside the target audience, so please, keep that in mind.

Playing games 'a whole lot' also does not make you an expert in game design. A person who play games a little, and still feels accomplished and entertained can be even more knowledgeable than someone who spends the great majority of their life on games. You toting around your playtime on games actually seems to display a lack of understanding of this concept. As does your "Opinions are facts to me." debate. Please note, this is an impression, not saying that this is a fact. I'm cautioning you about what you are expressing in hopes of directing the conversation along a more constructive path.

You have to understand that games are not designed around the individual consumer, but around a set target audience. It is up to you to come to the understanding of whether or not you fit within this target for each individual game, provide respectful feedback. based on your impressions, and then, if not met, seek different sources of entertainment.

I would also contest that any of the content outside of content that is overpopulated, out-leveled or out-geared could ever be zerged - that any piece of. In this case I think you are mistaking zerging with a fight that has been reduced to an understandable routine.

Since I typed out 4 big paragraphs and they were lost to the void due to forum limit... I will have to make due with shortened versions.

Whilst it seems unhealthy. Not letting your mind absorb new challenges, and not constantly learning is also unhealthy. However, I have not avoided my life at all. I have a good life and i'm happy, with no debts.

Not learning new things and not challenging your mind is also very unhealthy. Doing the same thing over and over is also unhealthy.

Many "Experts" who claim they know what gamers and video gamers want barely have the experience I have had. You can claim you have intelligence and knowledge to it. However I have "experience". I know for a fact what me and the people who I played with like and dislike.

Many "Gamers" today, only have ate apple pie, but have never dipped or tasted grape pie. This is an example and meaning, because they have never had content like that before in a game where lots of people were involved. They never experienced it.

Yes, the topic has been turning bad as you say. Sorry.

However, you can't tell me its that niche. Indeed you have to make a game that everyone enjoys. However if they never experienced a way to play, you can't just say that way will never work because they never tried it.

Many MANY people love Pizza, but what if nobody ever ate it or tried it? It wouldn't be very popular at all!

[Hyrist]

Yes, and I find that extremely boring.

I don't think this game does need it. This game is way too much like other games. FFXIV, is just taking things from other games and polishing it.

To be entirely fair, so was FFXI, taking the popular mechanics of the time and polishing it with it's own Final Fantasy flaire. It was not until multiple years down the road that it truely deviated on its own path. Are we not to give FFXIV the same level of patience?

The reason I play mostly now is just the role-play. Which.. really is bad.

Is it truly? This is your reason to play - if you enjoy it enough, why does it matter that the other features do not entertain you at the moment? Not all things appeal to all players, nor should it. Perhaps it is bad for you because Roleplaying is no longer entertaining? I submit that finding one's own entertainment in a game, be it its mechanics or its community, is all a part of the package.

For me, I too primarily roleplay right now. FFXIV has given us a backdrop for creative freedom. Right now, I'm on hiatus for the mechanics of the game, yet still enjoy role-playing when time spares.

I don't find this to be bad. I enjoyed the content that I played, and I stopped when it felt too repetitive. There's new content on the horizon to look forward to, even if it is 'more of the same' that does not automatically disqualifies it as entertaining. Meanwhile, I have fun with my friends. Different strokes for different folks.

Tyla_Esmeraude,
the comment about not intending to offend was referring to my post, I believe. Beyond that, I don't feel like it's appropriate to respond to the entity of your post, regardless of my disagreement, as it sounds very reactionary (and heated) to a specific course of discussion I was not part of.

I will say, 'the community' is rather large. You must have found some fragment of it you enjoy, identify and/or agree with, otherwise you wouldn't be here. So perhaps the blanket statement is a bit too broad? Keep in mind that you too are a part of this community.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

Tyla_Esmeraude,
the comment about not intending to offend was referring to my post, I believe. Beyond that, I don't feel like it's appropriate to respond to the entity of your post, regardless of my disagreement, as it sounds very reactionary (and heated) to a specific course of discussion I was not part of.

I will say, 'the community' is rather large. You must have found some fragment of it you enjoy, identify and/or agree with, otherwise you wouldn't be here. So perhaps the blanket statement is a bit too broad? Keep in mind that you too are a part of this community.

I was not talking about you when I said I can't stand this community. I was quoting the other guy whose posts were judgamental and offensive. But you also don't come off as respecting someone who plays more than you do when saying unhealthy, obsessively, not a badge of honor, etc. And yes I only enjoy people in this community who are reasonable and have common sense.

[Hyrist]

Now we have an expert on phsycology that dictates what's healthy and what's not on someone's else's life. The guy lives his life however he wants, he has a job and he pays for his entertainment and actually has hours to spend on it, and he can't even ask for content that actually takes time to invest, in a game he's paying for. It's a choice, if you want to spend time on something, you get the reward, if you don't then you don't do it and keep doing your usual things. Why are people so against people having options in a game?

I never said such things. I cautioned that his parading his gamertime could discredit his argument as it could be considered unhealthy. Please understand. I too am a games hobbyist and have spent quite a deal of time playing games and observing and participating in games culture. But I do not profess that this makes me a games expert nor that my opinion should be weighed heavier than others.

Also, no one has ever said that they are against 'options', by my observations. Merely people who are weighing against the pros and cons of these options and the feasibility of such recommendations. It's when both sides try to completely discredit one another that these discussions gets unnecessarily heated.

I was not talking about you when I said I can't stand this community. I was quoting the other guy whose posts were judgamental and offensive. But you also don't come off as respecting someone who plays more than you do when saying unhealthy, obsessively, not a badge of honor, etc. And yes I only enjoy people in this community who are reasonable and have common sense.

Yet you were speaking in broad strokes, which would, by virtue of diction, include me, and yourself, argumentatively.

Perhaps it's something not important to you. I can't presume as to your viewpoints on this. But I would argue that it's important that we try to embody the kind of demeanor we wish to see, rather then become enraptured in the negativity of the environment and express our exasperation for it. That, for me, would be common sense. Nothing we say here, ultimately is of great worth, but we might as well try to make it worthwhile to read, yes?


As far as people calling the WoW model a failure, most games that get called "WoW Clones" were missing important components of business structure that enabled Wolrd of Warcraft to have its sucess. Some of those components are shared with Square Enix, and was discussed as such during one of the early interviews regarding a Realm Reborn.

Please remember, FFXIV has already addressed a 'failure' and people called A Realm Reborn much the same. But all indications point that the game is actually becoming more successful, not less. We may wish to avoid the 'failure' debate until the usual sources start showing indications of heavy decline.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

I never said such things. I cautioned that his parading his gamertime could discredit his argument as it could be considered unhealthy. Please understand. I too am a games hobbyist and have spent quite a deal of time playing games and observing and participating in games culture. But I do not profess that this makes me a games expert nor that my opinion should be weighed heavier than others.

...

I apologize if my posts towards you was a bit aggressive. I'm a very patient gal but after years of seeing people bash on others judgamentally, it's a thing that I don't tolerate anymore, if there is something I don't agree with I will speak out. It's okay to post opinions as long as you respect someone else's decisions and not judge them for that. The wording of your posts gave off that vibe, thank you for the clarification, though.

So basically, what you're saying, is that you want no lifer, 15 hour MMO days back?

See what I mean, Hyrist? lol

[Hyrist]

I apologize if my posts towards you was a bit aggressive. I'm a very patient gal but after years of seeing people bash on others judgamentally, it's a thing that I don't tolerate anymore, if there is something I don't agree with I will speak out. It's okay to post opinions as long as you respect someone else's decisions and not judge them for that. The wording of your posts gave off that vibe, thank you for the clarification, though.



See what I mean, Hyrist? lol

I do, the criticism works both ways. Both sides of the conversation has a problem with striking out at the other. The question on having extended gameplay could be phrased a lot better.

Mind if I ask in my way instead?

We are running into a society that very much emphasis multitasking and consumes much more of our available downtime. Social media, the adaptation of RPG elements into other genre's of games (extending their use time), and the continual production of the online element - all of this distracts from what was typically a medium that could pretty much take over something as benign as watching television without consequence. In the end, we're a lot busier now than we were years ago, and it's showing in our trends.

I feel as if we're getting a lot more resistance to the slow-process content because of this factor, as well as the fact that the majority of the MMO base is wiser to the typical tropes used to stretch out content. In the face of this, you ask for more options.

As a counter-argument I would say that such long-term goals, when tied to progression, feel less like an option, and more like an obligation if a player wishes to stay current enough to play with friends who have differing playstyles. This is a problem we usually did not encounter in the older age MMOs, because our audience was so much more niche back then - if you coulden't fit the playstyle, you diddn't really play the game, and your cicles narrowed more because of it. FFXIV, by my impressions, seems to try to deviate away from that kind of target audience.

So, I have two questions along the vein of the feedback you received, in a far more respectful tone.

Given what I said above, would you be ok with accepting the unintentional (yet still possible) consequence of alienating a size-able portion of the base ,by expanding endgame in such a way that requires more investment?

And would you be willing to, barring above, participate or entertain in a non-progression aspect of the game that required such an investment as an option?

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

I do, the criticism works both ways. Both sides of the conversation has a problem with striking out at the other. The question on having extended gameplay could be phrased a lot better.

Mind if I ask in my way instead?

I'm going to comment on this based on my personal experience. Having more options does not aleniate the player base imo. When I played FFXI, I was a midcore player. Relics and Mythics were hardcore things to get back then and I never got them. It was an option that only those with the determination could get. That never prevented me from joining HNM LSs or doing end game, at all. I got the best 3rd in the list, which was Empyrean Weapons and we cleared content perfectly. No one forced you to have the best of the best and there was always side grades you could use, instead. There were always one or two top LSs on each server who needed you to have certain pieces only for certain jobs like BRD or PLD in order to apply, but people had a choice not to apply to these super hardcore LSs in the first place. That or some LSs were nice enough to help you work towards the relic if you promised to dedicate to it.

That's what I did, I looked for LSs with same mind as me, more midcore. My fun was not diminished only because I couldn't invest that much time to get a relic. Hardcores had their fun, while midcores had theirs. And then there was the casuals, who slowly were getting into the midcore scene, who also had their own fun at their own pace. I had tons of friends from the 3 spectrums and played together.

Having options keeps the community at ease, everyone minding their own business. I think it's selfish of people not wanting to implement OPTIONS for other players with a different playstyle who want to strive for more when 1. it won't even affect them 2. it makes the game more fun to others, which means more subscription retention. People are honestly being extreme and paranoid about nothing.

People are not saying "stop making casual content, delete all the casual content in game, no more vertical progress", they are saying "we want more options for players like us" "more horizontal progression". Vertical progression is not bad, just like horizontal isn't, either. The problem with the game is that it's purely vertical progression and on top of that, in an extreme way, where working towards something means little when content gets outdated this fast. If there was a balance between the two, we'd have less players complaining, more players having fun and happy, more money for SE.

Hell, I was even in an all BST/SMN only LS for Sky, which would've been considered not optimal to the eyes of the super hardcore. But guess what, no one cared! In fact, hardcore people found it interesting that we beat content with BST and SMNs only, two jobs that were considered non-optimal for end game. It was a choice. A choice that we had and we all had fun, while hardcores had theirs.

[Iagainsti]

I was not talking about you when I said I can't stand this community. I was quoting the other guy whose posts were judgamental and offensive. But you also don't come off as respecting someone who plays more than you do when saying unhealthy, obsessively, not a badge of honor, etc. And yes I only enjoy people in this community who are reasonable and have common sense.

You need to chill. Not once did I state it was "unhealthy" or "Obsessive", I personally don't want to dump umpteen hours into FFXIV to achieve what I am already achieving a few hours a week. If it took umpteen hours to get my 190s, and more than 4 hours a week to cap eso(expert roulette and pvp take what 20 mins a run) or each boss of savage was a huge grind to get into and a 4-5 hour fight, I wouldn't play, and I believe the majority wouldn't either. That's my opinion so lose the chip on your little taru shoulder please. You have mentioned me personally way to much in these last few pages. All the power to Neku-whatever and anyone else who wants a gaming experience that takes 100s of hours to get anywhere, whatever rubs your Buddha, I'm saying not in this game please, I am happy with it.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

You need to chill. Not once did I state it was "unhealthy" or "Obsessive", I personally don't want to dump umpteen hours into FFXIV to achieve what I am already achieving a few hours a week. If it took umpteen hours to get my 190s, and more than 4 hours a week to cap eso(expert roulette and pvp take what 20 mins a run) or each boss of savage was a huge grind to get into and a 4-5 hour fight, I wouldn't play, and I believe the majority wouldn't either. That's my opinion so lose the chip on your little taru shoulder please. You have mentioned me personally way to much in these last few pages. All the power to Neku-whatever and anyone else who wants a gaming experience that takes 100s of hours to get anywhere, whatever rubs your Buddha, I'm saying not in this game please, I am happy with it.

Oh I'm a pretty chill person. The one saying unhealthy, obsessive, etc was not you, obviously, never said you were. That's why I quoted one by one. You did say however, that other guy had no life only because he likes to dedicate more hours to a game. You can post your opinions, but don't judge others the way you do. It comes off as rude. There was no reason for you to offend someone telling them they have no life, specially when you don't even know them. You could've easily avoided the rude remarks while at the same time stating your opinion about not wanting to invest more hours into something. Simple as that. There is a reason he felt offended and it is clear as the sun.

Also don't understimate Lalafells/tarus, we are like piranhas, every tiny deep bite in your sleep counts, Mr. Hyur. Size ain't it all. (By the way, I was a Hyur once, just recently switched to lala, so there's more hyur running in my veins)

[Iagainsti]

Oh I'm a pretty chill person. The one saying unhealthy, obsessive, etc was not you, obviously, never said you were. That's why I quoted one by one. You did say however, that other guy had no life only because he likes to dedicate more hours to a game. You can post your opinions, but don't judge others the way you do. It comes off as rude. There was no reason for you to offend someone telling them they have no life.

Also don't understimate Lalafells/tarus, we are like piranhas, every tiny deep bite in your sleep counts, Mr. Hyur. Size ain't it all. (By the way, I was a Hyur once, just recently switched to lala, so there's more hyur running in my veins)

What? Keyword is "seem" so again, not judging, just observing based on info he relayed.
Mr. Hyur? pirahnas? I have no clue what you're going on about but ok, whatever. Point is stop misquoting me please and thank you.