More Horizontal Progression please

[karateorangutang]

I guess I'm a bit confused by this thread. I played XI for a good long time and at cap you still were required to have a set piece to be capable of entering certain content. Most of those pieces were either extremely pricey or were a rare drop that required vast amounts of time and effort to get unless you were extremely lucky ( looking at you kote... looking at you...). At 75 cap ( before the game got really broken) if you could wear it then you wore haubergeon, byakko's haidate, Sniper's rings +1 etc. Tanks wanted jelly ring etc....

So even with horizontal gearing, everyone still wore the same thing as everyone else. The only difference being that it took so much time to grind to that point that it seemed like you didn't always need it. Make no mistake though, if you wanted in endgame content in a good linkshell that had a history of clears then you were required to enter into it with a certain amount of acc and other stats.

[Iagainsti]

At the very least, I believe the 3.0 story duties should drop Law tomes for 60s running them, helps the ppl leveling alts get their queues faster. I'm lvling mch because Warrior pvp is too easy now (or harder since everyone is catching on) and I feel bad for asking my FC mates to queue with me when they don't get anything out of it(ex. even AV drops tomes and it was lvl 47)

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:


versus


According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?

Vertical means, there is only one best choice. Would you take an item that has 100 strength, or an item that has 50 strength? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 strength.

Your fighting an ice monster. Take one that has 50 ice resist, or 100 ice resist? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 ice resistance!.

There is no difference in that. However there is a difference in these.


Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

They are all good choices. Some might be better in some fights. However they are ALL GOOD for every fight! That is true horizontal progression.

For example, picking a DPS class and choosing which one you want is an example this game has of good horizontal choice, you pick the class that suits you, there is no one class that is better for certain fights they are just different.

[Ibi]

However there is a difference in these.

Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

[SendohJin]

For example, picking a DPS class and choosing which one you want is an example this game has of good horizontal choice, you pick the class that suits you, there is no one class that is better for certain fights they are just different.

wrong again. SMN is best for fights with a lot of mobs because they have the best AOE. MNK is best when the fight has little to no breaks so they never lose GL. support DPS are the worse when you don't need the support. WAR is the best tank when you have tight DPS checks. SCH was the best at single tank Ramuh EX, WHM was the best at cheesing Turn 2 enrage. some classes are situationally better than others though most of the time it's not immediately noticeable.

as long as 1 thing is not always best in every situation, you can have horizontal progression. stop pretending the world is black and white.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

Or, offer 4.

12% chance on hit to deal 1200 damage.

vs

12% chance on hit to deal 1600 damage, but takes 650 life every proc.

Now you have no healing, for more damage then the healing and damage one.

Now you have another one that does even MORE damage. At the cost of life.

[SendohJin]

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

Since you don't read. I was awnsering someone else's question that wasn't about FFXIV but Horizontal Progression in general. Don't butt into a conversation if you don't understand it.

Also, are you ever going to awnser my question? Or avoid it? Which game has this magical horizontal progression you speak of?

Please awnser with FFXI.

[loreleidiangelo]

I'm not quite sure if "horizontal progression" is what I'm looking for, but it'd be nice to have gear to chase that isn't gated behind weekly tome caps or weekly raid lockouts. Even if the combatant was RNG rather than a lockout, it at least would give players with more time on their hands something to do. Something to work towards with their oodles of free time when the raiding is done and they've already gotten their Alex drops and hit Eso cap.

[Jynx]

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.