Minor Complaint/Mini Rant

[SpookyGhost]

Something is severely wrong with tank design at the moment, and has been since 2.0. This is specifically going to touch on an issue with progression raiding, not dungeons or casual raiding. There are many problems that I can think of, but I'm specifically talking about a certain one that affects a lot of us (that I feel, shouldn't): VIT accessories.

Now, generally, anyone that's wearing STR accessories or crafted in raiding content you assume knows what they're doing. They at least know that they need to contribute damage - they need to put out more than they should be because they're in a progression group. Even if they're a bad and fall flat on their face, they have the right mindset just not the right execution.

What really irks me is when I'm recruiting for my group and we get nothing but VIT tanks. You're probably thinking "Oh, you're irked that people would sign up for a progression group and wear VIT accessories, not contributing to the group dynamic you just described". No. My problem is that those tanks are immediately viewed as bads to me, and I'm sure many make this assumption as well. Even if I don't hold that thought for long (if they show that they're good at their job then I just tell them they'll need to make the switch to crafted/3 STR + 2 VIT) I still have that thought initially, and it's extremely stupid that it should even be entering my mind.

I should not be seeing people who thought "Oh, I'm a tank, all the accessories I've gotten from dungeons until this point have been VIT accessories, therefore I should get those with my tomestones and Alex NM runs" and immediately assuming them to be bad tanks. The reason that I do is because the meta is so focused on DPS that any job, regardless of role, who isn't pulling their weight in the damage department is viewed as a detriment to the team.

I don't even have a problem with maximizing your DPS as a tank - that's perfectly fine, even stance dancing is fine with me. But the fact that seeing a VIT tank, even a Parry focused tank, makes me have this ridiculous mindset forced on me by the design of the game is just... insane. All these pre-conceived notions that would be stupid in any other game.

I know this has been said many times, but it's been really wearing on me. I love maximizing my damage, but I don't like that every tank is being forced to stack their accessories that way. It's not leaps and bounds difficult to grasp or anything, but it's just so counter intuitive to go pick up the accessories that you couldn't even Need on in a dungeon. No other job has this problem, even healers (who also DPS) will use MND accessories, not INT or something equally silly.

It's admittedly not the biggest problem in the world, but it's just mind blowing that I have to sit down with the recruits and tell them they need to get different accessories. I don't really know what to make of it and it never really entered my mind before when DPS checks weren't so tight. I apologize if this has just been incoherent babbling, just wanted to get all that off my chest as it's been really frustrating me lately.

[Dererk]

If they just buffed dps's dps and buffed tanks hate generation then we can leave the damage dealing to the dps and let the tanks get the crap beat outs them like we should be.

But saddly people would still demand tanks to for more str.

Wed need harder hiting tank busters to keep tanks in tank stance and get rid of the very high dps checks (Biz ex) to make things better.

[Drtoxicmedica]

I mean if it's a progression group there's nothing wrong with telling them to up dps. It's not like it's as simple as switching to dps acc and there golden they have to have the skill to back it up. However that mindset should not apply to anyone not on the cutting edge of progression where that extra dps isn't really need. Just my opinion tho. In needs to not simply be dps acc or you don't belong in any group it should be if you want to be in progression be able to do above and beyond the norm.

[SeraviEdalborez]

If they just buffed dps's dps and buffed tanks hate generation then we can leave the damage dealing to the dps and let the tanks get the crap beat outs them like we should be.

But saddly people would still demand tanks to for more str.

Wed need harder hiting tank busters to keep tanks in tank stance and get rid of the very high dps checks (Biz ex) to make things better.

1) Hate generation has never been a tank problem.
2) DPS doing more DPS doesn't make healer/tank DPS less important.

Tankbusters don't even mess with tank DPS. You DPS just by doing your job in the first place. Stronger tankbusters has been the name of the progression game since 2.0. It doesn't matter because no fight has such constant damage outflow that "average" tank mitigation matters. It only matters for those busters and you have more than enough cooldowns for them no matter what your job is.

Getting rid of high DPS checks isn't going to happen either because it's the only way SE knows how to design a fight. Too bad you can't have parsers to help refine play.

[Esp]

Final Fantasy XIV Heavensward: DPS Reborn is how I have been viewing the expansion since most of the world has hit 60.

It's apparent in just every post on this forum as well. But, this is what happens when you don't create content based on actual mechanics in favor of tight DPS checks and enrages. You do what you gotta do to progress.

[Sapphidia]

I fully understand what you mean. It's certainly natural as a good player to judge others silently (I know I always think badly of the ability of any player I see who has esoterics armor parts but a 180 weapon, for instance), though of course it's only being an asshole if you're rude about it to them. But yes, the tank issue is an extra layer of judgement.

We're judging people based on this strange tradeoff that the best tanks arent the ones that are maximising their tankiness.

I actually found myself thinking the same thing today... about -myself-, and it's something I now realise I've been feeling a lot recently. I'm not sure if other tanks have this experience, but it's something that happens in Pugs. As a Paladin, I'm nicely geared, STR spec, and have full Pentamelded accessories. When playing with my static group (currently on A3S) I try to maximise my DPS where possible, finding the points to use Sword Oath where it wont cause a tank splat.

When I run the Duty Finder though, I feel... torn. I ran a load of Alex Normal today to get some tokens for my alt classes. I found myself struggling to swap into Sword Oath at points I would have had no issue doing on Savage, because I felt that I didn't know the healers. It wasnt a physical struggle, my health wasnt dipping low... it was a mental struggle. I wanted to, but also didn't want to.

They'd likely have been fine of course, but I didn't want to push too hard if there was a risk of dying due to me not being in Shield Oath. It would have been -my fault- if choosing to go sword oath too often caused a death if the healers werent used to it. And because stuff like Alex Normal has really trivial DPS checks, there isnt as much need to minmax it. I do acceptable DPS with my gear level/pentamelds just doing dps-focused rotation in shield oath. But "acceptable" isnt -optimal-.

I never have this issue with any healers I know, but I'm always reluctant to go all out sword oath in duty finder groups unless i know it's going to be super trivial. I just don't want that potential back and forth bitchy argument about not being in the right tanking stance. And thus I find myself beating myself up over not being the best tank I could in these situations - technically I'm doing the right thing in these encounters by being stupidly easy to heal and making the success of the group more assured, yet in doing so I'm not doing as much DPS as I could with a little extra risk.

I -hate- this feeling of having to make specific tradeoffs and how potentially judgemental the community can be. It's a no-win situation.

[Drtoxicmedica]

Also if they just upped over all boss damage to the tank overall it might make most consider actually staying in tank stance. Possible buff the tank stance to mitigate say 40% damage and drastically increase boss single Target damage to compensate. Would make tanking out of tank stance much harder if not impossible. I mean just throwing something out there.

[Dererk]

Tank hate generation is tied into their dps so higher a tanks dps is better their hate generation is.

[Amiaze]

The reason that I do is because the meta is so focused on DPS that any job, regardless of role, who isn't pulling their weight in the damage department is viewed as a detriment to the team.

This is really all it boils down to. I've seen a number of threads like this, and it's one of my top three things that I'd like to see changed in the game. As I said in a similar thread, I see no issue with having a tank or healer focus on DPSing -- so long as their primary task is fulfilled first.

I've been with healers that would allow me to get to 10% health or lower before healing me because they were too busy DPSing, and I had to pop potions to stay alive. I've also been with tanks that completely ignored adds (as well as the DPS) in favor of burning the boss. Which meant the healer pulled all the aggro. Which meant I ran around until I eventually died.

World of Darkness and Turn 2 proved to me that the community, at least on the NA databases, prefers steep DPS-checks that encourage healers and tanks to ignore their primary roles in favor of DPSing.

I can't count how many times we wiped against Cloud of Darkness simply because people kept DPSing her and not taking the meteors, or ignoring the zones the alliances needed to be in. Instead, they were trying to burn the boss down. Turn 2 allowed you to let the enrage timer activate so that you could ignore the mechanics, and I was never in a party that chose to do the mechanics because of that. Even if it was just for fun. We just...burned it down.

Unless we get more fights that give us options, like T2 did, the only way I can see us getting around the DPS Fever is for SE to create more fights that focus more on each role doing their job rather than DPSing, similar to Garuda EX or Aurum Vale.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

1) Hate generation has never been a tank problem.
2) DPS doing more DPS doesn't make healer/tank DPS less important.

Tankbusters don't even mess with tank DPS. You DPS just by doing your job in the first place. Stronger tankbusters has been the name of the progression game since 2.0. It doesn't matter because no fight has such constant damage outflow that "average" tank mitigation matters. It only matters for those busters and you have more than enough cooldowns for them no matter what your job is.

Getting rid of high DPS checks isn't going to happen either because it's the only way SE knows how to design a fight. Too bad you can't have parsers to help refine play.

Increase DPS enough and you will rather take more DPS and have them tank it instead of a tank. Which happened in some MMOs. =)

Which can happen here.