Idea: Split Archer into Bard and Ranger

[Shaddai]

Stuff

Stopped reading after you said their is little difference before and after 30. Both oaths, Dragon kick, Jumps in general. Sorry I'm no long paying attention to you.
Ok so a couple things. First enimity needs rework in general. Second people have already gone back BECAUSE of the extra jobs, so third times the charm? I do not agree with middle grounds, so I think either make entirely new classes with similar things is more of "carbon copying", or the hybrids people ask for are skill tree which is branching. I'd prefer branching. As far as savage is concerned it was made as an option. If you get eso's then challenge savage then its not as big of a deal. You dont have to go in with bare minimum available gear but no one waits to get stronger to challenge the hard mode of a raid. I suggested and evolution of the game, not adding new stuff of a poor foundation. Fix old stuff then add new to make things smoother.

[RiceisNice]

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If you're not going to bother reading the other end of the discussion, I'm honestly not sure why you're even posting then. How does a paladin play differently with(out) sword/shield oath? The former two are literally buffs that does not change their rotational setup. Their post 60 skills are accomplished by what marauder does without needing warrior skills. Dragon kick, among the other monk skills, do nothing to drastically change the formula that pugilist has set up. It's a new skill, but it's a skill that has the same functionally as the other pugilist skills (form requirement, positional bonus).

Second people have already gone back BECAUSE of the extra jobs, so third times the charm? I do not agree with middle grounds, so I think either make entirely new classes with similar things is more of "carbon copying", or the hybrids people ask for are skill tree which is branching. I'd prefer branching.

This is an oxymoron if you're trying to avoid carbon copies; Trying to branch two jobs from a class means they have the same foundation, especially if they're remaining the same role. If they aren't the same role, then you better hope that it's not branching off a tank because of so many enmnity and mitigation tools being built into the class itself. You have much developmental room to work with by creating a new job entirely than trying to work another one off a base class, while considering all the balancing and such.

[Shaddai]

Stuff

Please tell me your joking. You can't be serious. Have you played the game? Dragon kick does nothing to change rotation? Sword/ shield oath make no differnce for paladins? Please make it stop. I can't even..........................................................

[Aiselia]

Dragon kick does nothing to change rotation?

Dragon kick and the Oaths change your class in the same way that getting literally any skill changes your class. Sword Oath doesn't change Paladins any more than Rampart did or Convalescence did. Dragon Kick doesn't change Monk any more than literally any of their other attacks. Getting Shield Oath doesn't change your rotation or what you use to gain enmity.
to be.

The most significant changes to any class actually come before 30. You get Rage of Halone before 30. You have 5 of your 6 main combo abilities when you hit 30 on PUG. If a Monk doesn't use DK, they don't have a massively shifted playstyle, they just do less damage. They're still stacking GLs, they're still moving back and forth to hit positionals.

Everything past 30 doesn't really change what you are, it just adds on to what you've already been doing. MNKs still have to stack GL. BLMs still swap between fire and ice.

The only exception is SMN/SCH, and they had to be SPECIFICALLY set up that way with that split in mind so that ACN is just a really basic class. Splitting classes is something that CAN NOT be retroactively done without completely remaking the game. GL comes from the class, not the job. No matter what else PUG might split into, they're still going to have to stack GL. AF/UI is part of the class, not the job. No matter what else THM might split into, they'll have to alternate fire and ice.

No matter how much you think that a split would be good, it's not even feasible at this point. If you can't accept this, well, maybe this isn't the game for you. There are other games which let you pick what role you want your class

[Shaddai]

Things

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please. You guys are high and drunk. No massive change after lvl 30 is complete BS. Sorry I severely disagree with you. If this is how majority of players think then I'm done posting in general.

[Aiselia]

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please.

Why? That won't change the fact that a vast majority of the skills I use come from the class, not the job. If you think that the skills from the job cause a massive change in how the class is played, then you obviously agree that everything below 30 is far more important and game-changing because they change you even more. Rage of Halone is a bigger game changer than Shield Oath because Shield Oath is just something you set and forget.

And I don't care if you disagree with me or not. It's not subjective where your main skills come from.

Here's my challenge for you. Go into a dungeon run and only use your JOB actions. No class actions. See how far you make it before they kick you.

[RiceisNice]

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please. You guys are high and drunk. No massive change after lvl 30 is complete BS. Sorry I severely disagree with you. If this is how majority of players think then I'm done posting in general.

I said it does not change how the paladin plays. Affecting their performance is something else and you;d be a damned fool to not use your job abilities. But my point is that those job abilities are not what makes gives that job their full identity.


If I have my soul crystal as a paladin, I will do my 1-2-3 combo ending with rage of halone.
If I dont have my soul crystal and go as a gladiator, I will do my 1-2-3 combo, ending with rage of halone.

If I have a soul crystal as a monk, I will alternate dragon kick and bootshine after every other demolish, snap punch or rockbreaker.
If I don't have a soul crystal and go as a pugilist, I'll just do bootshine after every demolish, snap punch and rockbreaker.

As a Blackmage, I'll get Flare and enochian which requires management of astral fire and umbral ice.
As a Thmeruegmeuwargh, I'll still be managing astral fire and umbral ice with less skills attached to it.

I'm speaking from a gameplay perspective and not performance. You can't expect to slap on 10 abiltties and hope that it'll diverse two jobs that are branching from one job, unless they are exclusively using those 10 abilties for their intended role (which is the case of healers). Otherwise, it'll be complete hell trying to balance between branching jobs that are both dps or it branches off a tank.

[Shaddai]

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Ok lets break it down using mnk as example. Job moves: Rockbreaker, Shoulder tackle, Fist of fire, One ilm punch, Dragon kick, Form shift, Meditation/FC, Elixer Field,Tornado Kick, Purification. So no long range period, no burst period, less dmg, no debuff, no shifting no aoe. Gameplay and performance are hand in hand can't seperate them. Not to mention you get stat buff from just equipping the crystal. You can rotate all day you won't be of any use. Paladin: Sword O., Shield O., Cover,Spirits, Hallowed Ground, Sheltron, Divine viel, Clem, Royal. No SO so no dps. No ShO so good luck even trying to keep aggro from any dps past 3 seconds. No Hallowed. You can't do a rotation if you can't hold aggro. Middle ground solution. Have new branch jobs get their own crystals that alter previous base moves to fit the standard. You get new moves almost entirely that you can't access till you get the job so low lvl is safe and its still a branch.