Idea: Split Archer into Bard and Ranger

[RiceisNice]

I can provide. For your first point I don't think things are super great among healers. I like the idea of having main healers and support healers. People will always complain so that does not matter.

It's not even that people were complaining. It was an actual problem because you'd never see astros in cutting edge savage progression. Objectively, trying to have an astro heal in savage was detrimental to your party, because their healing output (which is their role) was lower than that of WHM and SCH, and their support abilties did not outweigh that.

Deliverance means nothing. It is just like monks have fist of fire. Jobs make the class what it is. You are severely underestimating the effect of changing jobs from a base class.

A warrior plays the same in delvierance as they were in defiance. A warrior plays the same in defiance as they were as a marauder. You are severely underestimating how far rooted the jobs are to the base class.

Level a tank and tell me what's the deference between before 30 and after 30 for example

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There is quite literally no difference. At level 30 all they get is a stance, but they use the same pre-level 30 abilties as they were before. How am I supposed to make an argument that they would play any more different with a role change, using nothing but maim-extension combos (which is rooted to marauder, mind you)

Your third point makes sense I accept that I suppose a hand to hand tank would be difficult off pug unless they remove positional with lets say a lvl 30 tank stance which could remove positional req's. Try to be a little creative here. Extra jobs already provide new bases. Give SE a break in that regard.

Extra jobs provide new bases. Branching jobs do not, because they're sharing move sets with the base class. I'm all for adding new jobs, but making them branch off an existing class is literally shooting themselves in the leg in regards to what they can add. Arcanist has only one healing spell. Trying to branch any jobs off an existing tanking class (gladiator and marauder) is sticking them with all the defensive cooldowns and enmnity combos that comes with said classes. Not only do they not thematically match the branching jobs, it creates balancing issues because you don't want a dps or healer having access to powerful tanking cooldowns.

Because, for some jobs, thief and ranger specifically but there are others, devs used iconic weapons or abilities belonging to iconic jobs, doing some kind of mixed classes. What if my favorite weapons are daggers but at the same time i dont like mudra system? same goes for bow, what if i like the bow but i dont like the bard-ish play style? Doing branching jobs they would give me the option to choose. This doesnt mean that extra jobs will not considered imo. Not all jobs can come from branching, this apply just to some of them

Then it honestly does not sound like final fantasy is catering to your sense of aesthetics. They'd be far better off making weapons like longbows and dual swords for new jobs than trying to squeeze in branching jobs and limiting the amount of options the new job has. Otherwise you're essentially trying to force a certain gameplay onto a class/job because you personally do not like the original gameplay ("I like using a staff but I hate cast times", for example)

[Aiselia]

it creates balancing issues because you don't want a dps or healer having access to powerful tanking cooldowns.

Not to mention the nightmare of attempting to balance that it would take to make them do enough DPS to be comparable to the other classes without being able to use the class' base skills. A DPS branching off a Gladiator would have to do comparable damage to the other three melee to warrant actually using, but only within 10 skills. A DRG has 10 skills in their normal GCD rotation alone, so not counting their various buffs and OGCD attacks. A DPS doing comparable damage limited to only around 10 (okay, maybe they could use Riot Blade to refill MP or something) skills from their Job would pretty much need to be the simplest of all the DPS classes because you'd either have very few OGCDs and cooldowns to manage in order to have a lengthy GCD combo or a really simple GCD 1-2-3 combo with a few OGCDs to squeeze in.

[Shaddai]

Stuff

Stopped reading after you said their is little difference before and after 30. Both oaths, Dragon kick, Jumps in general. Sorry I'm no long paying attention to you.
Ok so a couple things. First enimity needs rework in general. Second people have already gone back BECAUSE of the extra jobs, so third times the charm? I do not agree with middle grounds, so I think either make entirely new classes with similar things is more of "carbon copying", or the hybrids people ask for are skill tree which is branching. I'd prefer branching. As far as savage is concerned it was made as an option. If you get eso's then challenge savage then its not as big of a deal. You dont have to go in with bare minimum available gear but no one waits to get stronger to challenge the hard mode of a raid. I suggested and evolution of the game, not adding new stuff of a poor foundation. Fix old stuff then add new to make things smoother.

[RiceisNice]

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If you're not going to bother reading the other end of the discussion, I'm honestly not sure why you're even posting then. How does a paladin play differently with(out) sword/shield oath? The former two are literally buffs that does not change their rotational setup. Their post 60 skills are accomplished by what marauder does without needing warrior skills. Dragon kick, among the other monk skills, do nothing to drastically change the formula that pugilist has set up. It's a new skill, but it's a skill that has the same functionally as the other pugilist skills (form requirement, positional bonus).

Second people have already gone back BECAUSE of the extra jobs, so third times the charm? I do not agree with middle grounds, so I think either make entirely new classes with similar things is more of "carbon copying", or the hybrids people ask for are skill tree which is branching. I'd prefer branching.

This is an oxymoron if you're trying to avoid carbon copies; Trying to branch two jobs from a class means they have the same foundation, especially if they're remaining the same role. If they aren't the same role, then you better hope that it's not branching off a tank because of so many enmnity and mitigation tools being built into the class itself. You have much developmental room to work with by creating a new job entirely than trying to work another one off a base class, while considering all the balancing and such.

[Shaddai]

Stuff

Please tell me your joking. You can't be serious. Have you played the game? Dragon kick does nothing to change rotation? Sword/ shield oath make no differnce for paladins? Please make it stop. I can't even..........................................................

[Aiselia]

Dragon kick does nothing to change rotation?

Dragon kick and the Oaths change your class in the same way that getting literally any skill changes your class. Sword Oath doesn't change Paladins any more than Rampart did or Convalescence did. Dragon Kick doesn't change Monk any more than literally any of their other attacks. Getting Shield Oath doesn't change your rotation or what you use to gain enmity.
to be.

The most significant changes to any class actually come before 30. You get Rage of Halone before 30. You have 5 of your 6 main combo abilities when you hit 30 on PUG. If a Monk doesn't use DK, they don't have a massively shifted playstyle, they just do less damage. They're still stacking GLs, they're still moving back and forth to hit positionals.

Everything past 30 doesn't really change what you are, it just adds on to what you've already been doing. MNKs still have to stack GL. BLMs still swap between fire and ice.

The only exception is SMN/SCH, and they had to be SPECIFICALLY set up that way with that split in mind so that ACN is just a really basic class. Splitting classes is something that CAN NOT be retroactively done without completely remaking the game. GL comes from the class, not the job. No matter what else PUG might split into, they're still going to have to stack GL. AF/UI is part of the class, not the job. No matter what else THM might split into, they'll have to alternate fire and ice.

No matter how much you think that a split would be good, it's not even feasible at this point. If you can't accept this, well, maybe this isn't the game for you. There are other games which let you pick what role you want your class

[Shaddai]

Things

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please. You guys are high and drunk. No massive change after lvl 30 is complete BS. Sorry I severely disagree with you. If this is how majority of players think then I'm done posting in general.

[Aiselia]

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please.

Why? That won't change the fact that a vast majority of the skills I use come from the class, not the job. If you think that the skills from the job cause a massive change in how the class is played, then you obviously agree that everything below 30 is far more important and game-changing because they change you even more. Rage of Halone is a bigger game changer than Shield Oath because Shield Oath is just something you set and forget.

And I don't care if you disagree with me or not. It's not subjective where your main skills come from.

Here's my challenge for you. Go into a dungeon run and only use your JOB actions. No class actions. See how far you make it before they kick you.

[RiceisNice]

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please. You guys are high and drunk. No massive change after lvl 30 is complete BS. Sorry I severely disagree with you. If this is how majority of players think then I'm done posting in general.

I said it does not change how the paladin plays. Affecting their performance is something else and you;d be a damned fool to not use your job abilities. But my point is that those job abilities are not what makes gives that job their full identity.


If I have my soul crystal as a paladin, I will do my 1-2-3 combo ending with rage of halone.
If I dont have my soul crystal and go as a gladiator, I will do my 1-2-3 combo, ending with rage of halone.

If I have a soul crystal as a monk, I will alternate dragon kick and bootshine after every other demolish, snap punch or rockbreaker.
If I don't have a soul crystal and go as a pugilist, I'll just do bootshine after every demolish, snap punch and rockbreaker.

As a Blackmage, I'll get Flare and enochian which requires management of astral fire and umbral ice.
As a Thmeruegmeuwargh, I'll still be managing astral fire and umbral ice with less skills attached to it.

I'm speaking from a gameplay perspective and not performance. You can't expect to slap on 10 abiltties and hope that it'll diverse two jobs that are branching from one job, unless they are exclusively using those 10 abilties for their intended role (which is the case of healers). Otherwise, it'll be complete hell trying to balance between branching jobs that are both dps or it branches off a tank.