Savage Alexander and the Paladin Exodus

[ckc22]

Imo this is just a symptom that basically all endgame content right now is designed as hard enrage dps checks - which is an entire problem in itself.

[Kyne_Lyons]

Imo this is just a symptom that basically all endgame content right now is designed as hard enrage dps checks - which is an entire problem in itself.

I don't think that hard enrage DPS checks are problematic personally. The game needs hard and fast rules by which it determines the minimum level of performance a group. I believe the problem comes from a fundamental contradiction with how the developers envision the job, and how the job actually performs. Quoted from the Letter from the Producer Live XXIII:

Paladin won’t be able to output that much DPS. Earlier I mentioned Hallowed Ground, but paladins specialize in defense, so their damage output is lower compared to the other tanks. These are all part of their job characteristics within the tank role, so warriors are able to output damage easier while acting as both main tank and off-tank.

The job is envisioned according to Yoshi-P as a defensive specialist, however the job does not play to this in A3S, and A4S. In A3S in order to make up the deficiencies in Paladin DPS you spend much of the fight tanking the boss in Sword Oath. Dark Knight can perform at a same or higher level while spending more time in Grit, giving the defensive edge to Dark Knight. If a Paladin does 650 DPS on A3S, a Dark Knight can do the same 650 while also taking less damage. In A4S, the same is also true. Paladin has to take more damage to do the same damage as a Dark Knight, and in addition to spending more time in Sword Oath taking 20% more damage, my shield provides me absolutely no relief as the fight is entirely Magical damage. Again, both the offensive and the defensive win in design is given to Dark Knight.

The way the job is envisioned and how it plays are fundamentally at odds with one another. This is a big, big problem and I hope the developers are listening.

[StouterTaru]

Imo this is just a symptom that basically all endgame content right now is designed as hard enrage dps checks - which is an entire problem in itself.

The alternative is a system where the meta becomes a party made entirely of tanks, healers, and one bard for any high end content.

[Donjo]

I don't think that hard enrage DPS checks are problematic personally.

I'm not quite sure about that. They have their places, but the primary proponent of the problem people are currently seeing with Paladins(low DPS) is almost directly caused by the fact that every enrage in Savage Alexander is hard. There's no compromise. Making more enrages soft(but not every enrage), on the other hand, could encourage more varying party compositions clearing fights.

I'll take Savage 3 as an example. Let's imagine a situation where the enrage is softer than it was. Instead of a big daddy Cascade coming to destroy you eventually because "lol you took too long", the last phase rotation will repeat endlessly with the caveat that Cascade will do increasingly more damage to the party every time it pops up. Most parties would, say, get wrecked eventually around when the hard enrage currently is. However, if you bring along a Paladin, Warrior, Monk, Astro, and Scholar you could stack mitigation, get past one or two more Cascades, and lengthen the fight. A party could also take those silly melded accessories and stack some extra VIT to get past later Cascades with less damage reduction. The point is if they don't have the DPS for a straight burn then they can opt to play it safe, lengthen the fight, and lessen the DPS check. This kind of fight design could give both Dark Knight and Paladin different reasons to be in the party.

By the way: Does the damage reduction from Sacred Soil stack with Collective Unconscious, or are they mutually exclusive?

The alternative is a system where the meta becomes a party made entirely of tanks, healers, and one bard for any high end content.

This is precisely why the traditional Holy Trinity features Tanks and Healers that do peanuts for damage.

[Croisciento]

Snip

That's what they did previously with every coil. Mostly soft enrages and apart from T13 if you group was playing properly you wouldn't have problems with DPS. I mean you wouldn't really pressure healers nor tanks to dps that hard. Tank DPS really became a thing with Alexander savage.

But the problem is that no matter which kind of mechanic you'll throw to players they'll beat it eventually and it won't take them weeks or even months. So they decided to prevent most players from clearing with gear. That's kind of stupid in my opinion but that's how you keep players on content...

And to the guy saying its because we are fighting undergeared we were also fighting undergeared back then on T9/T13 and there wasn't a particular class who wouldn't be able to clear except Dragoon which got fixed few weeks later.

Oh and warrior being mandatory not only because of its dps but also its utility is also a sign there's a problem.

[Donjo]

That's what they did previously with every coil. Mostly soft enrages and apart from T13 if you group was playing properly you wouldn't have problems with DPS. I mean you wouldn't really pressure healers nor tanks to dps that hard. Tank DPS really became a thing with Alexander savage.

That's not quite true. The First Coil remains as the best designed raid tier in the history of the game in terms of its ability to challenge a Tank's ability to mitigate, a Healer's ability to heal, and a DPS's ability to DPS, all at the same time. Second Coil was a mechanics check more than anything else, but T8 and T9 had threatening DPS checks that many groups were able to sidestep by removing a Tank from the party. Final Coil shut down single tanking in raids and gave every fight threatening enrages. Building Tanks for damage first started gaining momentum during Second Coil, but it was Final Coil where it truly became a thing. This was due to the combination of crafted gear being more powerful than it had ever, hideously low Tank HP thresholds for the raid, and a desire to make that "other tank" be more useful when they aren't in front of the boss.

For Savage Alexander, crafted gear was knocked down a peg(although accessories weren't knocked down as much as the left side), the Tank HP thresholds are still hideously low, and every fight again has a threatening enrage. This is just following Final Coil's lead.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Making more enrages soft(but not every enrage),

I miss soft enrage timers. If you were around for Titan hard-mode when ilv.70 was legit, Titan would use more Tumult's (AoE raid wide damage) the longer the fight progressed making it more and more difficult to keep the party alive if you were slow.
Coils T1 had something like this as well with Caduceus gaining damage stacks over time.

Even the instances with Hard Enrage timers in the 2.xx series were survivable to an extent. Coils T2, the room would pulse massive raid wide damage if you were slow—Coils T4 had the same thing.

Regarding the OP, I think more soft enrage timers would go a long way towards fixing the issues Paladins have in this meta but there are still other changes that would definitely be welcomed.

p.s. Hard Enrage timers are still fun but I think they've gone overboard lol. Every boss says "Fuc* You, I aint got time for this" after 8minutes in 3.0.

[Donjo]

2.0-2.1 Experiences

Oh, yes. I was there. Although I was braving Titan HM for a Monk Relic at that time, not a Tank Relic.

[ckc22]

The alternative is a system where the meta becomes a party made entirely of tanks, healers, and one bard for any high end content.

There are plenty of fights with interesting mechanics that have a dps check at some point in the fight or a soft enrage.

[Fendred]

Imo this is just a symptom that basically all endgame content right now is designed as hard enrage dps checks - which is an entire problem in itself.

It's not so much the DPS checks as much as the ability bloat, which was cool to start with, but became a hindrance during raids where more attention needs to be placed on the battlefield than the ability bar. Plus, I still ended up getting bored after a while because, for DD at least, we use the same abilities for every encounter, minus a few AoE skills.