Savage Alexander and the Paladin Exodus

[adn]

I'm just going to say that judging what the world first/second clears do in their comps is not a good indicator of what "average" groups are doing. People pushing for world first clears do weird stuff and use hyper-optimized comps and all sorts of silly things that the "average" savage group might not do.

Second of all I think it's generally agreed that the DPS checks in place in Alex Savage are designed with a MUCH higher item level in mind than what people were sitting at when it was released. Like, S-E is clearly thinking people will have a few weeks worth of esoterics under their belts before even looking at clearing some of these things. Watch the world first clear for A3S and see how they literally beat the enrage as it's about to go off, and that should be proof positive of this theory. And that is likely with their hyper-optimized group and all that jazz.

Frankly I think PLD DPS does need a little buff (people have been talking about this on the tank forums for weeks) but that it's a good idea to wait and have a few more data points before concluding that it's completely broken. I think they're in an OK place, maybe the current tier doesn't favor them but that's just the way hardcore raiding works, not every class can be "optimal" for every tier.

[Ashkendor]

Tank balance is a huge issue right now, but nobody clearing the content as Paladin is ever willing to talk about it until they get to A4S, which is the purpose of this thread. The most demoralizing thing is that I can switch to a Dark Knight, a job I have no Esoteric gear for, and get better performance on this encounter in every single metric. It's heartbreaking.

I already feel like my raid group would be better off if I switched to DRK, but I enjoy Paladin so I'm loath to give it up. I just really hope the gap between tanks gets looked at sooner rather than later. :/

Second of all I think it's generally agreed that the DPS checks in place in Alex Savage are designed with a MUCH higher item level in mind than what people were sitting at when it was released. Like, S-E is clearly thinking people will have a few weeks worth of esoterics under their belts before even looking at clearing some of these things. Watch the world first clear for A3S and see how they literally beat the enrage as it's about to go off, and that should be proof positive of this theory. And that is likely with their hyper-optimized group and all that jazz.

What ends up happening though is your Average Joe takes that bleeding-edge meta as gospel without even really knowing why. AST was fine before for pretty much anything outside of Savage, but people were kicking them and/or excluding them from EX primals and Alexander Normal. This is how rampant class discrimination gets started.

Do I think Paladin is completely broken? No. Do I think it needs some work to be on par? Absolutely.

[Kyne_Lyons]

This thread is not about judging based only on what world/second clears do in their comps. The conclusions reached are alongside having spoken with other raiders working on A4S, working on it myself with my group as Paladin, watching any stream I can of other groups attempting the fight, and talking to other prominent Paladins who no longer play the job.

"Average" is really subjective, but frankly "Average" Savage groups are still wiping to A2S right now. They aren't facing the realities of game balance yet, so I'm not really considering them when making this argument. Sure, not every job can be "optimal" for every tier, but there's a huge gap between "optimal" and "detrimental" when it comes to progression. Currently in A4S, and this is true for A3S as well, Paladin is the latter.

[Nekodar]

Paladins have Divine Veil... which can help mitigate raid wide damage quite well.
I almost never see anyone actually make use of it though.

Can anyone comment on how useful that is in Savage?

[SpookyGhost]

Can anyone comment on how useful that is in Savage?

Has random uses.

A1S jump, A3S Cascade, A4S AOE... thing I forget the name of.

Divine Veil and Clemency are both pretty underwhelming in Savage, but DV at least has it's places.

[Kyne_Lyons]

Divine Veil's uses are incredibly limited and the shield is small. Places to use it in Alexander Savage:

A1S) After the Oppressor and 0.5 lift off. It'll give you a little extra damage off the landing which, if you execute correctly, isn't threatening in the least anyways.
A2S) Nowhere that's really super noteworthy since there's really no unavoidable raid damage, but I use it whenever Snipers out and get near enough to healers to put the shield on them. Will only absorb a single attack but, it's something.
A3S) After Wash Away to help with the raid damage on the following Fluid Strike and before Cascades, beginning with the first Cascade in the final phase. You'll use it 3 times total in the final phase.
A4S) Before phase trasitions just before the Manipulator begins channeling Mortal Revolution. You don't use it on the first Mortal Revolution because the damage isn't threatening at this point in the fight, and if you use it here it won't be up for the second Mortal Revolution since the second leg pushes faster than the third or fourth due to mechanics. When I use it just before the second Mortal Revolution, the leg phases take long enough that it will be off cooldown each time. It's only a 1.8k shield but, it's something.

Overall, it's not a horrible ability but it's basically a sub-Succor effective healing ability on a 2.5 minute cooldown that requires someone else to trigger it after you push the button. Not really anything to write home about, and certainly nothing that justifies bringing a Paladin.

[OPneedNerfs]

Can anyone at this point even think of a fight/mechanic where it would cause a WAR to be inferior when brought along compared to a PLD+DRK combination?

From all their toolkits, it feels as if anything designed to make things harder for WAR would also cause the other 2 tanks the same or more disadvantages.

I'm interested to see what SE can do to change the tanking meta to allow for a PLD+DRK combo to be more optimal than WAR+DRK/PLD.

My money's on them just outright buffing/nerfing classes but since the hivemind wishes for a FoTM style of balancing, I'd like to see how SE responds.

[Soda]

Stunning the legs so that Perpetual Ray doesn't nuke your raid for super damage, plus the TP and MP drain isn't hard but the 150 TP cost rears it's head the longer you go into the fight, and it breaks your combo thus setting your damage back even further. Since you are locked to the GCD you also have the shortest window to stun the leg as getting caught in a GCD delays when you can stun it and get back on your kill target. No other tank in the game has to deal with this and it's a huge, huge disadvantage. DPS is also extremely important because you need to push the phases before getting additional Discoid orbs and Straf dolls spawns.

This right here. It's such a huge deal that I am having to level DRK to be able to deal with this interrupt mechanic. Call it what you want, but 150 TP and interruption of combo on a 13minute fight is a huge issue. I was putting it off thinking we could make it the whole way but with how tight A4S is you just can't spend 150 TP and interrupt your combo so many times like that.

[ckc22]

Imo this is just a symptom that basically all endgame content right now is designed as hard enrage dps checks - which is an entire problem in itself.

[Kyne_Lyons]

Imo this is just a symptom that basically all endgame content right now is designed as hard enrage dps checks - which is an entire problem in itself.

I don't think that hard enrage DPS checks are problematic personally. The game needs hard and fast rules by which it determines the minimum level of performance a group. I believe the problem comes from a fundamental contradiction with how the developers envision the job, and how the job actually performs. Quoted from the Letter from the Producer Live XXIII:

Paladin won’t be able to output that much DPS. Earlier I mentioned Hallowed Ground, but paladins specialize in defense, so their damage output is lower compared to the other tanks. These are all part of their job characteristics within the tank role, so warriors are able to output damage easier while acting as both main tank and off-tank.

The job is envisioned according to Yoshi-P as a defensive specialist, however the job does not play to this in A3S, and A4S. In A3S in order to make up the deficiencies in Paladin DPS you spend much of the fight tanking the boss in Sword Oath. Dark Knight can perform at a same or higher level while spending more time in Grit, giving the defensive edge to Dark Knight. If a Paladin does 650 DPS on A3S, a Dark Knight can do the same 650 while also taking less damage. In A4S, the same is also true. Paladin has to take more damage to do the same damage as a Dark Knight, and in addition to spending more time in Sword Oath taking 20% more damage, my shield provides me absolutely no relief as the fight is entirely Magical damage. Again, both the offensive and the defensive win in design is given to Dark Knight.

The way the job is envisioned and how it plays are fundamentally at odds with one another. This is a big, big problem and I hope the developers are listening.