AST Sect Theory

[Apeiron]

Didn't expect to see this thread back, haha. Good to see more replies, though (even if it irritates some others). Amiaze, I'm going to work backwards on your post, so forgive me if I miss something.

Edit: In response to your remark on nobody refuting your numbers, I'll admit that I won't try to. I don't know all the numbers personally. Nor do I think that you really need to. You can, but looking at basic potencies and ability rules should be enough. If not, then there's always the tried-and-true method: put it to the test in and endgame raid and see how well it goes.

Potencies need to be looked at now, anyways, but there's no real need to refute them. On paper, the numbers I've posted up are pretty sound given their scenarios they're included in. The problem comes from application, which leads me to the next part of your post:

You could always try running with WHM in Diurnal Sect and SCH in Nocturnal Sect, but you'll find that your roles overlap far too much. AST was meant to be a more flexible answer to the WHM/WHM and SCH/SCH combo problem, and should be treated as such. It has the ability to cover the weaknesses of both classes, so why not use the ability properly?

Yes, I could, and in-point-of-fact I will. I created this thread back when my AST was lv52-53, and I had not yet completed the MSQ to unlock Alexander. It was an attempt to elicit more talks about methods to play the AST by posing the hypothesis and letting available Alexander players try it. From what I'd read, the primary opinion was (and pretty much still is) that unless you're running dungeons or other content outside of raids, the AST should never be outside of Diurnal Sect. I disliked that opinion, as it relegated the AST to WHM Jr. (in which case why ever bring an AST?) and left an entire mechanic (the Sects, more specifically Nocturnal Sect) untouched by the players to figure out all of its shortcomings, and ways to make it work.

I'm happy to say my AST is 58, pushing 59, and my next move is to recruit (or be recruited) and test out my hypothesis to see where, and under what conditions, it breaks.

I did consider the overlap in roles; however, I looked at it from the standpoint of capitalizing on your healer's strengths (regens/lots a single target heals) as with WHM/Diurnast you'd have plenty of ticking regens that could leave healers to do other necessary things, and with SCH/Noctast you'd have effectively 3 healers capable of responding to mechanics differently, but ultimately working towards the same end (Succor, Divine Wind, and Helios in tandem).

One of the reasons your theory cannot be fully supported was mentioned way earlier in this thread. Nocturnal Sect's shields overwriting SCH's buffs automatically makes one of their shielding abilities pointless unless the healers have perfect coordination over Teamspeak or something. For that sort of effort, why not just go to Diurnal Sect?

I very much think that we should be treating AST as a WHM or SCH Jr, and this can easily be seen in combat. I'll use Nael deus Darnus as an example.

WHM can easily heal the party to full, even if they take Lunar Dynamo by mistake (assuming that it didn't outright kill them). Would AST helping with proactive heals be helpful? Yes, because it would mean that WHM would have to heal less -- but because WHM's healing potency is already so high, you would then risk overhealing, anyway, making one of the healers waste MP. It would be more preferable that the party be shielded throughout the fight so that WHM doesn't have to spend so much MP healing in the first place.

Now, let's use A4 as a second example. There is a lot of unavoidable splash damage in that fight. Would shields be preferable? Likely, yes. But, because SCH's shields cannot work with ASTs, you won't be doubling up on shields any time soon. So let's say the AST was in Diurnal Sect with a WHM. The healing output would be amazing, but again, you'd run the risk of overhealing and wasting MP. The problem with having two WHMs in later Coils was that the damage output was very high, and eventually, one of them would run out of MP if the run wasn't going smoothly. The other would follow suit. The problem with having dual SCHs was that the reactive healing just wasn't really there. They were meant to mitigate damage, not heal through it.

If a WHM were to run out of MP during a raid, then having AST in Diurnal Sect would be great...except for the fact that if they started in Nocturnal Sect, the point is now moot. I think that it was for situations like this that AST received healing buffs. This way, your party isn't SoL when a WHM runs out of MP. If you had a SCH run out before the AST, and you were in Nocturnal Sect, you might be able to argue that their pet could help out with the healing while you shielded...but, inevitably, you would just be waiting for the SCH's health to regen. And God forbid your party take a heavy AoE. If you're in an 8-man-raid, it won't be as easy to heal through that.

That's not to say that either combo is impossible, but it is noticeably more difficult to pull off until you have said content on farm.

I particularly enjoyed this chunk of text. Especially because you used both sects in your examples instead of singling out Nocturnal. Thank you for this They're more of what I was expecting (hoping, really) to get from some of the more seasoned healers.

I still dislike the argument that more communication is required, though. Is it really that much more communication? Having two healers who understand, and have researched, the fight and noting at what times they might both need to use shields shouldn't really require more communication. And with something like Teamspeak, why would a simple phrase like "shields" or, perhaps more appropriate "Helios" require more coordination?

If I've missed anything, let me know. Pressed for time, atm, so I don't think I covered everything I wanted.

[Amiaze]

Yes, I could, and in-point-of-fact I will... From what I'd read, the primary opinion was (and pretty much still is) that unless you're running dungeons or other content outside of raids, the AST should never be outside of Diurnal Sect. I disliked that opinion, as it relegated the AST to WHM Jr. (in which case why ever bring an AST?)

I really wish we were on the same server. I'd love to test that with you. I can't run all of the dungeons with AST yet (like you, I'm still leveling it, but I'm almost there), but in my experience, it isn't always best to be in Diurnal Sect. In fact, I've been going through every dungeon I can in Nocturnal Sect. I believe the only one that simply wouldn't let me do that was either Dzamael Darkhold or Aurum Vale. The damage going out was simply too much to shield through, so I used Stoneskin as a temporary shield while healing everyone up. Please let me know how your experiment works. I might even ask someone to help me to the same thing.

I still think that AST is great even in these scenarios, though, because of their cards. They are RNG-based, once Bole or Balance are drawn, the difference is noticeable.

I did consider the overlap in roles; however, I looked at it from the standpoint of capitalizing on your healer's strengths

That makes sense. I would argue, however, that AST's actual strength is in its versatility and cards rather than just in shielding or healing. If you're focusing on an EX Primal, then having constant regens might be a good idea, and it would likely be easier to pull off having a WHM and AST in Diurnal Sect (although I wouldn't recommend SCH and Nocturnal Sect for reasons such as EX Shiva's ice spears, which will likely kill anyone who is behind her when they aren't supposed to be if they have no shields up). It would leave the healers available to help with DPS and phase pushes. However, that wouldn't be as safe in Coil or Alexander, especially in A4, where there is a big healer focus.

I can't say that I can justify WHM and Diurnal Sect simply because of the overlap, but I also don't think it would result in a tank's death in a dungeon. It's really harder content (T9/T13, A4/AS4) where it would become an issue. As for SCH and Nocturnal Sect, overwriting each other's abilities would likely result in death. I'll explain why below.

As for effectively having three healers rather than two, you could argue that a pet could make up for a lack of reactive healing where a SCH and Nocturnal AST could shield, except that the shields would not be consistent due to the overlap. Going into Diurnal would mean that a SCH could shield while their pet helped heal, and then AST could help heal and focus more on trying to drawing cards that would help with damage output (assuming that the party's HP is already topped off and they aren't taking a lot of damage). In this case, having the AST be in the opposite form of their co-healer would be more beneficial.

I particularly enjoyed this chunk of text. Especially because you used both sects in your examples instead of singling out Nocturnal. Thank you for this They're more of what I was expecting (hoping, really) to get from some of the more seasoned healers.

Thank you! I'm glad I could help.

I still dislike the argument that more communication is required, though. Is it really that much more communication? Having two healers who understand, and have researched, the fight and noting at what times they might both need to use shields shouldn't really require more communication. And with something like Teamspeak, why would a simple phrase like "shields" or, perhaps more appropriate "Helios" require more coordination?

This is where I think risking something like having two healers doing the exact same job would fall apart. My static originally had a WHM, but I was also a WHM, and we found that we would oftentimes waste abilities. Because we were both so focused (and we had no form of voice chat at the time), he might use Benediction a half-second before I used my own, or vice-versa. In the end, one of us would waste the CD. Or I would use Cure II after a tankbuster, he would use Cure II as well, but I would already be readying a second Cure II. Because I traded two pieces of gear out to increase my spell speed for healing in pinches, I couldn't cancel the move and, ultimately, it would be wasted.

Later, we would call out moves, but it's a bit more difficult to do. We were in T5 at the time, and if I had to cast Benediction or begin casting Stoneskin to help mitigate Death Sentence, I would normally end up calling it out as I performed the move. Emergency situations like that don't allow for a lot of forewarning. This tactic would be better used when farming something, but not when attempting to clear it.

Because of this, my co-healer switched to SCH.

My static has since disbanded, but I've found communicating with other healers to be very difficult because I don't know how they prefer to heal, and they don't know how I do, either. Because my static had such a hard time with T9, I have what my tank calls "Nael PTSD". The moment I see health fall even a fraction, I send out a Stoneskin and toss out a Cure or Cure II. It's just reflex. When I don't do it, and I see someone's health fall to around 75%, I don't know that the other healer is trying to conserve MP. So I'll being healing very quickly in an attempt to get them back up at the same time they do. Again, one of us ends up wasting MP.


I think that something else that should be considered is the party composition. I hate to keep using T9 as an example, but it's my go-to because I know its healing mechanics better than other instances. I'm...not exactly proud to say that I was stuck there for that long, but oh well.

As I mentioned before, we found that having two WHMs would, in most instances, become rather problematic. It wasn't so much an issue in T9 so long as we had a Warrior tanking for us.

With Warrior, I found that, because my WAR was taking so much damage so consistently on top of players getting hit by mechanics, my MP would often fall to about 60%-70% before the Golem Phase of the fight. I would actually use that time to let it regenerate while tanking a Golem. With another WHM, however, MP wasn't really an issue. Assuming AST is in Diurnal Sect for this, WHM could benefit from it. But the healing potency wouldn't be as high as having another WHM, so they can't answer the MP issue as well as another WHM could have unless the can consistently draw Bole.

For this, I would much prefer to see Nocturnal Sect.

In the same fight, we later had my WAR switch to PLD. He wasn't happy about it, but it made the fight a lot easier. Healing him up was no issue at all. The only issue I would encounter would be if he took a hit he wasn't supposed to, or if he got a critical. It was rare, but it did happen from time-to-time, and because I would often be dropping a meteor somewhere or would be in the midst of casting Stoneskin, Nael's next auto-attack would kill him. Two WHMs or a WHM and AST in Diurnal Sect simply could not heal through this. A SCH or Nocturnal Sect would be needed to mitigate some of the damage and allow for enough time to heal.


Note: At one point in my earlier post, I accidentally said "proactive" rather "reactive". Sorry about that.

[Apeiron]

I really wish we were on the same server. I'd love to test that with you. I can't run all of the dungeons with AST yet (like you, I'm still leveling it, but I'm almost there), but in my experience, it isn't always best to be in Diurnal Sect. In fact, I've been going through every dungeon I can in Nocturnal Sect. I believe the only one that simply wouldn't let me do that was either Dzamael Darkhold or Aurum Vale. The damage going out was simply too much to shield through, so I used Stoneskin as a temporary shield while healing everyone up. Please let me know how your experiment works. I might even ask someone to help me to the same thing.

I still think that AST is great even in these scenarios, though, because of their cards. They are RNG-based, once Bole or Balance are drawn, the difference is noticeable.

Haha, sorry. About the closest I can get is a low-level alt on Adamantoise I occasionally play.

Hrm. Probably Aurum, as DD is a 44-46 dungeon iirc. I'll have to give that a go to figure out why that might be a problem. Honestly, if you get a pre-fight shield up with stoneskin I don't think you should be having much trouble, especially now with the new buffs. Mixing Aspected Benefic's shield with Benefic, Benefic II, or Essential Dignity should keep you out of the fire for your tank. Though, if your party is taking too much damage from the boss mechanics of the 1st or final boss, see about having them push as many stacks as they're comfortable with before eating fruit, gather up for Aspected Helios, and then drop Benefic II on your DPS. That should take care of them, and your tank should still have enough HP for you to catch up with your standard mix of Benefic, A. Benefic, etc.

That makes sense. I would argue, however, that AST's actual strength is in its versatility and cards rather than just in shielding or healing. If you're focusing on an EX Primal, then having constant regens might be a good idea, and it would likely be easier to pull off having a WHM and AST in Diurnal Sect (although I wouldn't recommend SCH and Nocturnal Sect for reasons such as EX Shiva's ice spears, which will likely kill anyone who is behind her when they aren't supposed to be if they have no shields up). It would leave the healers available to help with DPS and phase pushes. However, that wouldn't be as safe in Coil or Alexander, especially in A4, where there is a big healer focus.

I can't say that I can justify WHM and Diurnal Sect simply because of the overlap, but I also don't think it would result in a tank's death in a dungeon. It's really harder content (T9/T13, A4/AS4) where it would become an issue. As for SCH and Nocturnal Sect, overwriting each other's abilities would likely result in death. I'll explain why below.

As for effectively having three healers rather than two, you could argue that a pet could make up for a lack of reactive healing where a SCH and Nocturnal AST could shield, except that the shields would not be consistent due to the overlap. Going into Diurnal would mean that a SCH could shield while their pet helped heal, and then AST could help heal and focus more on trying to drawing cards that would help with damage output (assuming that the party's HP is already topped off and they aren't taking a lot of damage). In this case, having the AST be in the opposite form of their co-healer would be more beneficial.

I'd caution against calling it a "strength" but it is undoubtedly a big draw with AST for the players who want to be able to play both WHM and SCH, but don't want the hassle of juggling two jobs. Likewise, the cards are another big draw for players who want to play a more support-esque job, but don't want to roll ARC/BRD or MCH. Not too long from now, and I suspect we will get a tank version of the DPS/Healer utility. Still, I'm not wholly convinced this is a "strength" of the AST in the sense that it's something that makes the class irreplaceable, but it does have a lot of good points to make a compelling argument that it is a strength. The biggest factor that holds it back from being a true strength is, no surprise, the RNG factor. As much as I love the RNG factor in place of consuming MP a la BRD/MCH, it has its downsides.

The pet very well may, but I can't say how effective it is as a reactionary partner with two other healers that are being proactive. At least you can assume the pet will heal the lowest HP, and work around that. Still, with an AST in Noct, I don't think the overwrite would be as big of a problem as some suggest. The shields are no longer grossly under-powered now, and even still the AST would simply reserve their A. Benefic for if the party was split (for whatever reason) or if the SCH went down. Doing this would mean they have the stronger healing spells, while saving on MP by not spamming A. Benefic or A. Helios. There would still be other problems, as you've pointed out with MP, but a little fine-tuning and the SCH/AST pair should be able to clear the content just fine (by just fine, I mean the party clears. I understand ideally healers want to keep the whole party alive through content, but I'm more focused on just getting through the content).

This is where I think risking something like having two healers doing the exact same job would fall apart. My static originally had a WHM, but I was also a WHM, and we found that we would oftentimes waste abilities. Because we were both so focused (and we had no form of voice chat at the time), he might use Benediction a half-second before I used my own, or vice-versa. In the end, one of us would waste the CD. Or I would use Cure II after a tankbuster, he would use Cure II as well, but I would already be readying a second Cure II. Because I traded two pieces of gear out to increase my spell speed for healing in pinches, I couldn't cancel the move and, ultimately, it would be wasted.

Later, we would call out moves, but it's a bit more difficult to do. We were in T5 at the time, and if I had to cast Benediction or begin casting Stoneskin to help mitigate Death Sentence, I would normally end up calling it out as I performed the move. Emergency situations like that don't allow for a lot of forewarning. This tactic would be better used when farming something, but not when attempting to clear it.

Because of this, my co-healer switched to SCH.

My static has since disbanded, but I've found communicating with other healers to be very difficult because I don't know how they prefer to heal, and they don't know how I do, either. Because my static had such a hard time with T9, I have what my tank calls "Nael PTSD". The moment I see health fall even a fraction, I send out a Stoneskin and toss out a Cure or Cure II. It's just reflex. When I don't do it, and I see someone's health fall to around 75%, I don't know that the other healer is trying to conserve MP. So I'll being healing very quickly in an attempt to get them back up at the same time they do. Again, one of us ends up wasting MP.

Ah, yeah, I see where that's a problem. I'unno, having played AST as I have with other healers, I don't find a lot of problems coming up. Again, I haven't done really demanding content as a healer, but I see what you mean. Originally, I thought one of the reasons for weaker potencies might be so that healers didn't have to worry about overhealing as much. The WHM and SCH, who are dedicated and focused healers with kits built around making them effective in their respective areas, would take the lead in healing, and the AST would follow-up as necessary here or there to help top-off the odd party member or two. Not so much, now, but I'm not going to complain about the changes. I actually laughed, I was so happy.

Hrm. Welp. I guess like any good group, the pairing would have to be up to the healers -- how comfortable they were, and how well they could communicate. If they don't want to communicate, or can't for technical reasons, matching healer roles won't work out well. In which case, the AST will be playing the opposite role.

I think that something else that should be considered is the party composition. I hate to keep using T9 as an example, but it's my go-to because I know its healing mechanics better than other instances. I'm...not exactly proud to say that I was stuck there for that long, but oh well.

As I mentioned before, we found that having two WHMs would, in most instances, become rather problematic. It wasn't so much an issue in T9 so long as we had a Warrior tanking for us.

With Warrior, I found that, because my WAR was taking so much damage so consistently on top of players getting hit by mechanics, my MP would often fall to about 60%-70% before the Golem Phase of the fight. I would actually use that time to let it regenerate while tanking a Golem. With another WHM, however, MP wasn't really an issue. Assuming AST is in Diurnal Sect for this, WHM could benefit from it. But the healing potency wouldn't be as high as having another WHM, so they can't answer the MP issue as well as another WHM could have unless the can consistently draw Bole.

For this, I would much prefer to see Nocturnal Sect.

In the same fight, we later had my WAR switch to PLD. He wasn't happy about it, but it made the fight a lot easier. Healing him up was no issue at all. The only issue I would encounter would be if he took a hit he wasn't supposed to, or if he got a critical. It was rare, but it did happen from time-to-time, and because I would often be dropping a meteor somewhere or would be in the midst of casting Stoneskin, Nael's next auto-attack would kill him. Two WHMs or a WHM and AST in Diurnal Sect simply could not heal through this. A SCH or Nocturnal Sect would be needed to mitigate some of the damage and allow for enough time to heal.


Note: At one point in my earlier post, I accidentally said "proactive" rather "reactive". Sorry about that.

Hey, use whatever you've got for your examples and we'll work with them. If you've got T9, you've got T9.

I've actually have nothing to comment about this portion of your post, other than it's just a good example of why stacking regens isn't always a good idea, and why some mitigation is better than no mitigation. Thanks for sharing

I am wondering, now, how people are taking the new changes. I'll have to go and dig up some of the newer threads to get the feel of what people are experiencing.

Also wondering what content a group of all healers can clear up to....

[Apeiron]

In regards to Aurum: Nope. Still sub-50 (I hadn't check when I made my earlier reply -- I should have though!) meaning no Noct sect. Just ran it and had no real difficulties outside the occasional player goof. Might want to check and make sure your diurnal sect is up next time you run. If it is (or has been) problem might have been party or gear.

[Amiaze]

In regards to Aurum: Nope. Still sub-50 (I hadn't check when I made my earlier reply -- I should have though!) meaning no Noct sect. Just ran it and had no real difficulties outside the occasional player goof. Might want to check and make sure your diurnal sect is up next time you run. If it is (or has been) problem might have been party or gear.

Sorry, looked at my AST again and I think it was actually Dusk Vigil that gave me issues. I'd have to replay it again (I've been busy and haven't touched it in a while), but one of the bosses was giving me trouble, so I left Nocturnal and went back to Diurnal. For some reason I was thinking I hadn't hit 50 with AST yet.

Although I did have some gear issues in Aurum Vale previously.

[Apeiron]

Let me dumb it down a little.

If you, as an AST, demand that I not use any shields after the opener while I'm playing my SCH, I'm going to laugh at you. You'd essentially be telling me not to do a pretty crucial part of my job because you want to, despite the fact that you can click a button and let us both do something beneficial to the group without overwriting one another and wasting MP.

That's kind of the end of the line. There is no tactic which would make a Noct sect anything but terrible to pair with a SCH, especially because you have Diurnal to use instead.

No one is telling the SCH not to shield o.o". I have not once advocated that the SCH not utilize their shields. No AST should be demanding anything of the other two healers. No need to "dumb down" what hasn't been said. And besides, I'm fully capable of handling complex reasoning when well explained. Dumbing things down is actually a hindrance to clear communication, as you tend to leave vague gaps in your explanation.

Sorry, looked at my AST again and I think it was actually Dusk Vigil that gave me issues. I'd have to replay it again (I've been busy and haven't touched it in a while), but one of the bosses was giving me trouble, so I left Nocturnal and went back to Diurnal. For some reason I was thinking I hadn't hit 50 with AST yet.

Although I did have some gear issues in Aurum Vale previously.

Aah, see now that makes more sense. Please tell me which boss you're having trouble with, because I know for a fact I've run DV in Noct, and the only problems I've had were on the player end.