AST Sect Theory

[Apeiron]

So, I've got a theory atm about how to use Diurnal and Nocturnal sect, and I'm hoping y'all can help me out.

Since the AST is a healer support job, I was wondering if the intent behind the two sects was for us to "mimic" whatever healer the AST is paired with, allowing the AST to take some of the burden off of the other healer so that they're not racing to spam all of their healing spells and abilities to get the party up to full.

We already know that the AST lacks the healing throughput of the other two healers, but this mainly comes up because we have an AST attempting to replace a WHM when paired with a SCH, and vice versa. But when we do this, I think what this is doing is actually hurting the party makeup, because the AST already doesn't have the healing power of the WHM yet we're attempting to shoehorn them into that role because we don't want their sub-standard shields to get in the way of the SCH. I think that the AST should be using whichever sect matches the other healer, so that way you have multiple regens overlapping as if you had two WHM, or a mechanic is about to come up, the SCH can shield initially, and then the AST can follow-up after the shields are down, and mitigate more damage without the SCH wasting too much MP.

Again, I'm posting this because I need some help figuring out how well this works. I've been pretty busy over the last week, and having other healers help me test this is probably the best way to get feedback.

[Lastelli]

Not really. There's a reason if full parties usually use the WHM/SCH couple. They complement each other. Consider that a a Noct AST's shields overwrite the SCH's shields and vice versa, so noct AST + SCH is just a terrible choice. WHM + diurnal AST is decent, but double WHM is just muh better.

[Apeiron]

This is part of the mentality that I want to address. Yes, WHM/SCH is a great complement to one another, but the AST is neither of these two classes and we need to stop treating it entirely as if it were WHM jr. or SCH jr.

The fact that the AST shields overwrite the SCH, should just mean that AST are careful about when they use Aspected Benefic or Aspected Helios, mainly avoid using it on the MT as the SCH will already be using Adlo on them. But if the AST sees Galvanize go down, he can use Aspected Helios to follow up, and the SCH doesn't have to bother with popping Succor. Instead they can continue dealing with other aspects of the fight.

[Budi]

SCH's job is to reduce damage taken. WHM's job is to heal the party up to 100%.
If you go Diurnal + WHM you dont have the damage reduction, and if you go Noct + Scholar you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM.

[Lastelli]

This is part of the mentality that I want to address. Yes, WHM/SCH is a great complement to one another, but the AST is neither of these two classes and we need to stop treating it entirely as if it were WHM jr. or SCH jr.

But this is exactly what AST is. Once you choose a Sect, AST becomes WHM/SCH jr. because it was designed that way. Right now cards are useless so yes, we can only think of AST as the weaker version of the other healers depending on the stance. AST's healing skills are all identical or very, very similar to whm and sch's skills. whm and sch however have a lot of skills that an AST doesn't have. We have a useless and overly complicated and random card system however.

[GeekMatt]

I'd enjoy trying it out but SCH + Noct AST would really not be easy because of the override and the lack of options for picking the party up. If AST had one half-decent burst AoE that wasn't shield-oriented, it wouldn't be so bad, but AST already struggles with AoE and it's not SCHs forte either, so taking into consideration that AST shields would be completely useless in an AoE event, it wouldn't be ideal. SCH would have to shield everyone and then both jobs would have to fight to pick everyone up. For single target(s) I could see it maybe working, but AoE would be a horrible experience.

As for WHM/Diurnal AST, that's already common practice for a lot of ASTs, since Regens do stack.

[Apeiron]

SCH's job is to reduce damage taken. WHM's job is to heal the party up to 100%.
If you go Diurnal + WHM you dont have the damage reduction, and if you go Noct + Scholar you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM.

If you go WHM + WHM you don't have the damage reduction, and if you go SCH + SCH you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM. Not a very convincing stance you've taken.

But this is exactly what AST is. Once you choose a Sect, AST becomes WHM/SCH jr. because it was designed that way. Right now cards are useless so yes, we can only think of AST as the weaker version of the other healers depending on the stance. AST's healing skills are all identical or very, very similar to whm and sch's skills. whm and sch however have a lot of skills that an AST doesn't have. We have a useless and overly complicated and random card system however.

Sorry, this was poor forethought on my end. When they've chosen their respective sect, the AST acts very much like a WHM or a SCH -- its AB becomes Regen, or Adlo; its AH becomes Medica II, or Succor; its CU becomes Asylum, or Sacred Soil -- but attempting to play the AST like a WHM with Diurnal, or a SCH with Nocturnal, has been met with a lot of problems. If we played them as an extension to WHM or SCH, bolstering their regens and healing, or dropping shields after theirs are down (or on party members they're not focused on) and healing, shouldn't that prove to be more beneficial than if we played AST like a poor substitute?

I'm going to leave the card system for another thread, as I'd like to focus primarily on the sect here.

I'd enjoy trying it out but SCH + Noct AST would really not be easy because of the override and the lack of options for picking the party up. If AST had one half-decent burst AoE that wasn't shield-oriented, it wouldn't be so bad, but AST already struggles with AoE and it's not SCHs forte either, so taking into consideration that AST shields would be completely useless in an AoE event, it wouldn't be ideal. SCH would have to shield everyone and then both jobs would have to fight to pick everyone up. For single target(s) I could see it maybe working, but AoE would be a horrible experience.

As for WHM/Diurnal AST, that's already common practice for a lot of ASTs, since Regens do stack.

Let's break down what a SCH/AST has for healing, shall we? We have the SCH, their fairy, and the AST. Physick, Embrace, Benefic, Adlo, Essential Dignity, Succor, Whispering Dawn, Helios, Aspected Helios, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Synastry... Think that covers everything.

Now, allowing that the AST is smart enough not to override the SCH shielding, that still gives the pair plenty of tools to pick a party back up. And when a shield goes down, the AST can drop AB until the fairy gets around to healing the party member, or heal them themselves. Alone, the AST can help get 1 person back up above 50% hp with Essential Dignity, then follow up with synastry and get two more party members back on top.

[Lastelli]

@Apeiron
Meanwhile a SCH+WHM combo can just use indomitability+assize and that's it (and you don't even need to waste MP in the process...in fact the WHM gets 10% of his MP back). Actually they can do a lot of different things with their amazing skills. Party topped, ready to dps or heal the tank. Notice that we're talking about raid progression here. Trivial encounters like extreme primals can be easily solo-healed by every healer if your party is good enough.

Now, allowing that the AST is smart enough not to override the SCH shielding

So you're saying an AST should not use 2 of the 5 healing skills he/she has access to. Why not just solo-heal the fight if that's the case? :P

[Apeiron]

@Apeiron
Meanwhile a SCH+WHM combo can just use indomitability+assize and that's it (and you don't even need to waste MP in the process...in fact the WHM gets 10% of his MP back). Actually they can do a lot of different things with their amazing skills. Party topped, ready to dps or heal the tank. Notice that we're talking about raid progression here. Trivial encounters like extreme primals can be easily solo-healed by every healer if your party is good enough.

So you're saying an AST should not use 2 of the 5 healing skills he/she has access to. Why not just solo-heal the fight if that's the case? :P

Raid progression is part of the reason why I'm asking for other people to try this out. My AST is only 52, and I really want feedback from people who don't mind taking some time to try it out to try Noct+SCH or Diurn+WHM. This is not a thread about if WHM or SCH are better option, we already know that they've got a really strong kit that meshes well with other healers. The SCH + WHM combo don't have just indomitability and assize. They've got a lot of other spells and abilities they can use. By listing out what tools an AST + SCH have, I was attempting to show GeekMatt that the duo do have the tools necessary to bring a party back up to snuff.

Now, here's where I sound rude, because you missed the key word I used for that sentence. That being override. I did not say the AST shouldn't use their skills that provide shields, I'm saying the AST has some common sense and knows not to use AB or AH when Galvanize is up. If the AST sees Galvanize go down, they're more than welcome to use either AB or AH to save the SCH from having to do it. Especially if there are multiple players who're low on health and the SCH is busy bringing tanks back up, and the fairy won't get to them immediately.

[Cynfael]

Noct needs help before any truly useful discussion comparing the Sects can take place. You know it's in a bad place when most of us end up touting the stacking regen effects of Diurnal AST+WHM as the more efficient alternative to Noct AST+WHM despite the longstanding meta of regen+regen easily becoming an overhealing mess compared to regen+shields.