AST Sect Theory

[Cynfael]

Personally I have nothing against this discussion and would be pleasantly surprised to know that I've missed something.

It's fine that you continue to dig, Apeiron, but at this point I still believe that digging at Noct will continue to turn up little else of value. The most likely conclusion at this point is that there is no amazing technique to uncover, but that SE erred by making Noct far too situational and much weaker in comparison to the pre-existing barrier healer than Diurnal is in comparison to the pre-existing regen healer.

I don't deny that Noct can pull some useful tricks with tools like Aspected Benefic, but much like the entire card system and the majority of AST CDs when compared to the toolkits of other healers, the occasional feeling of pulling off an awesome maneuver is tempered by the realization that the overall contribution lags behind what even Diurnal ASTs can provide in most situations, never mind what SCH and WHM can do.

And don't mind if people get up in arms around here. It's understandable that our already-contentious community of healers get hot and bothered when talking about sects.

[Ninimo_Babamo]

I feel like this entire post is just a troll. Why would you need 8 people to stand around to test regens? It's simple. Use one. The ticks on one are the same as the ticks on 8. This is such a joke. Noct is horrible and should never be used outside of pvp. If I'm playing as scholar and an astrologian wants to join my groups and shield, hes got two options. Switch to regens and learn to heal, or get kicked from my group. I'm not here to solo heal.

To recap, the WHM has longer and more potent regens. If they decide to forgo regens, it's a sizable difference than if an AST forgoes regens to go with more potent healing with a SCH to compliment what they already have.

This argument just killed your entire topic. On the flip side: To recap, the SCH has more potent shields. If they decide to forgo shields, it's a sizeable difference than if an AST forgoes shields to go with more potecny healing with an AST to complement what they already have.

Completely, 100%, invalid argument. It is unacceptable for an AST to use their shields over a scholar if there is one in the party.

Your other argument is that Aspected Helios is better with shields than with regens, but think about how crazy that is. Over the duration of the regens, they will heal far more than shields will. You cast the Aspected Helios loaded with regens as a big his is coming out, allowing the initial hit to get everyone up enough to survive any immediate damage while the regens slowly tick away pulling players back to full health as you deal with other things, like buffing or dpsing. It is very wasteful for you to top everyone's health off by hard casting each time they drop below 100% HP.

You seem to have no experience in hardcore raiding and that is where your entire argument stems from. The point of someone clearly inexperienced in what is truly is to be a healer.

Meanwhile, you still haven't reached 60 on your AST, and by the looks of it, you don't even play it anymore. You've stopped and you're leveling Dragoon again.

[Apeiron]

Which page of the discussion are you on, exactly, Ninimo?

[Ninimo_Babamo]

One page directly behind this one. Doesn't matter anymore. I'm done with this topic. You're an inexperienced healer trying to tell very experienced healers why we are wrong. Trying to teach you is like beating a dead horse with a stick, and this topic has been beaten by so many sticks, that it isn't even recognizable anymore. Enjoy the rest of your post.

I hope that, one day, you level your astrologian to 60 and heal something other than 4man content with it so you can see, first hand, the error in your theory. You obviously will not listen to evidence and testimony of very geared and very skilled healers.

[Apeiron]

One page directly behind this one. Doesn't matter anymore. I'm done with this topic. You're an inexperienced healer trying to tell very experienced healers why we are wrong. Trying to teach you is like beating a dead horse with a stick, and this topic has been beaten by so many sticks, that it isn't even recognizable anymore. Enjoy the rest of your post.

I hope that, one day, you level your astrologian to 60 and heal something other than 4man content with it so you can see, first hand, the error in your theory. You obviously will not listen to evidence and testimony of very geared and very skilled healers.

♪ So long; farewell; alvederzane; goodbye~ ♪

[Zholi]

You mean "auf wiedersehen?" Anyway.

You don't seem to get it. Your theory is wrong on paper. It's not even worth testing. Asking me to test this is like asking me to test whether 2 + 2 = 8. You can't tell me I don't know because I "haven't tested." This is literally just common sense. Do we test whether it's a good idea to run into oncoming traffic? No, because it's common sense. And when you have an utter dearth of it, it causes problems with other people, as you can see. The level of hubris a level 59 DRG has to have to argue with a healer in arguably the top FC in the world about HEALING is something I cannot even fathom.

[Apeiron]

You mean "auf wiedersehen?" Anyway.

You don't seem to get it. Your theory is wrong on paper. It's not even worth testing. Asking me to test this is like asking me to test whether 2 + 2 = 8. You can't tell me I don't know because I "haven't tested." This is literally just common sense. Do we test whether it's a good idea to run into oncoming traffic? No, because it's common sense. And when you have an utter dearth of it, it causes problems with other people, as you can see. The level of hubris a level 59 DRG has to have to argue with a healer in arguably the top FC in the world about HEALING is something I cannot even fathom.

That's what I get for not looking up the lyrics XD

I fail to see what my choice in job to finish out the MSQ has to do with anything. It was simply the class I chose to level first, because I enjoy it. If you're so ready to write off what someone has to say based on that criteria alone, well, that's just disappointing and sad of you. Hubris is a funny word, though. Only partially because it's fun to say, but because of its definition being related to pride and self-confidence. Neither of which apply to me putting forward my hypothesis, however incomplete it might be.

I'd like to know where my hypothesis fails off on paper, though. That was a worthwhile remark. No one here has yet to refute any of the numbers I've put down with their own, and instead I've been met with a fantastical display of what can be watered down, "ast regens are love, ast regens are lief".

[Ninimo_Babamo]

It keeps refreshing on the Healer forums. My OCD compels me to look. If all you wanted was raw numbers to disprove you, should have said so in the first place. But, you didn't, you asked for perspective; which we gave and you were unhappy with. So here are the numbers:

Nocturnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial heal
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
399 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
assumed 8 players hit
2352 total potency

Diurnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
790 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
assumed 8 players hit
5120 total potency

In both cases, Diurnal pulls ahead by more than twice the potency per heal, however Diurnal has one major advantage. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition extend those durations.Let's just assume that only the single target is used for single target, and aoe is used for aoe, though these could be mixed and matched in several different ways, this is the more clear cut use.

Diurnal Sect + TD/CO

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
+100 potency regen for 15 seconds (5ticks) by way of Time Dilation
1290 total potency

Aspected Benefic
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
+50 potency regen for 5 seconds (1tick, 1 second away from a second)
assumed 8 players hit
5520 total potency

While it would be unlikely for a good Astrologian to use either Time Dilation or Celestial Opposition for the regens alone, it is still an option and this perfectly illustrates why Diurnal is the sect to use. If you want to consider that a Scholar can mistakenly erase a shield placed by an astrologian and vice versa, then you must also consider that it could effectively cut the above potencies in half.

Please do not try to bring up the argument saying that shields are easier to use then regens because it is false. A good healer knows when to use both.

With these number in mind, why would you pick a class that has 5% stronger, yet 5% slower cast, heals in one category with the other category of heals more than 50% weaker, still 5% slower cast?

[Zholi]

That's what I get for not looking up the lyrics XD

I fail to see what my choice in job to finish out the MSQ has to do with anything. It was simply the class I chose to level first, because I enjoy it. If you're so ready to write off what someone has to say based on that criteria alone, well, that's just disappointing and sad of you. Hubris is a funny word, though. Only partially because it's fun to say, but because of its definition being related to pride and self-confidence. Neither of which apply to me putting forward my hypothesis, however incomplete it might be.

I'd like to know where my hypothesis fails off on paper, though. That was a worthwhile remark. No one here has yet to refute any of the numbers I've put down with their own, and instead I've been met with a fantastical display of what can be watered down, "ast regens are love, ast regens are lief".

The best numbers are real world data. As far as I know, you're not allowed to post parses here. And I definitely don't use a parser and definitely don't have hundreds of data points that show Diurnal has consistently higher HPS than Nocturnal in real world applications, so I couldn't post any if I wanted to.

[Apeiron]

It keeps refreshing on the Healer forums. My OCD compels me to look. If all you wanted was raw numbers to disprove you, should have said so in the first place. But, you didn't, you asked for perspective; which we gave and you were unhappy with. So here are the numbers:

Nocturnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial heal
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
399 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
assumed 8 players hit
2352 total potency

Diurnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
790 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
assumed 8 players hit
5120 total potency

In both cases, Diurnal pulls ahead by more than twice the potency per heal, however Diurnal has one major advantage. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition extend those durations.Let's just assume that only the single target is used for single target, and aoe is used for aoe, though these could be mixed and matched in several different ways, this is the more clear cut use.

Diurnal Sect + TD/CO

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
+100 potency regen for 15 seconds (5ticks) by way of Time Dilation
1290 total potency

Aspected Benefic
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
+50 potency regen for 5 seconds (1tick, 1 second away from a second)
assumed 8 players hit
5520 total potency

While it would be unlikely for a good Astrologian to use either Time Dilation or Celestial Opposition for the regens alone, it is still an option and this perfectly illustrates why Diurnal is the sect to use. If you want to consider that a Scholar can mistakenly erase a shield placed by an astrologian and vice versa, then you must also consider that it could effectively cut the above potencies in half.

Please do not try to bring up the argument saying that shields are easier to use then regens because it is false. A good healer knows when to use both.

With these number in mind, why would you pick a class that has 5% stronger, yet 5% slower cast, heals in one category with the other category of heals more than 50% weaker, still 5% slower cast?

Huh, didn't realize AB in noct = Benefic before, thanks for that. I'll have to see what other things are lying about.

But, for the record, you're comparing the go-to healing spell in Diurnal (A. Benefic) for HoT to the same spell in Nocturnal. As I've stated before, the AST would not be using this as frequently in Nocturnal as they would in Diurnal for the reason we've stated before (and you've so graciously refreshed!) as their other options are more potent and the SCH shields would be present. Which is why the Noctast would focus primarily on Benefic, Helios, and Benefic II. It becomes their bread and butter, just as A. Benefic, A. Helios, and benefic are the Diurnast's.

The best numbers are real world data. As far as I know, you're not allowed to post parses here. And I definitely don't use a parser and definitely don't have hundreds of data points that show Diurnal has consistently higher HPS than Nocturnal in real world applications, so I couldn't post any if I wanted to.

I agree, real world numbers are best for the obvious reason. They're real. We can work with them. The hypothetical numbers are, however, my best option until I meet the criteria needed to go into Alexander Savage. Again, I'm asking because of that inability, before game mechanics change to Alexander Savage or AST so that there's a baseline. While we're not about to parse and violate our user agreements, there are ways to refute my claims by looking at the potencies I've posted before and compare them to your experiences.

I would like to know if HPS is counting ticks of regen that tick, but don't heal -- as in, the party member their on is at full, and so the cure goes to waste. Counting those numbers towards your overall HPS should skew your real numbers in a favorable manner for Diurnal. I would like to hope that Diurnal has a higher HPS overall than Nocturnal, it ticks a 150 potency every 3 seconds if you've combined both your HoT on one target, and that still leaves a 50 potency ticking away at anyone who was close enough to catch the A. Helios, boosted to 150 again every time you need a little extra HoT to casually bring your party members back up (peppered with a benefic, maybe).

Do you happen to know what the average difference between your Diurnal AST and your Nocturnal AST tends to be?