EC explains how the current progression system is flawed

[Ayuhra]

I would agree with you but in the end I do things in XIV because I have fun doing them. Not because of some methodical trickery that makes me think im having fun. I have fun playing with my friends, pvp, crafting, the list goes on. I choose to play this game, the game doesnt force me to.

I think you DO agree with me. I never said that I thought FFXIV was unfun. It has problems but I've been defending it in this thread. Like I said up above I don't think that FFXIV relies on operant conditioning anywhere near as much as some other MMOs. There is some of that in the game, it sort of comes with the genre, but I find Eorzea an engaging place to be in. Heck, I've been leveling an alt just to see the story again.

[Fendred]

I'm not entirely sure how to word this, but the transition from leveling to end game is somewhat jolting. I've gone through Heavensward twice on two different characters, and the second I hit end game, its like being dropped from a serene country road onto an active free way during rush hour. It's difficult to change lanes due to the traffic pushing everyone in the same direction. The main street isn't fun for everyone, and a lot of us would like to take a different route to our destination. Some drivers are tail-gating others passive aggressively to get them to move faster if they're on the same lane, which further speeds up the traffic to dangerous and exhausting levels.

[KisaiTenshi]

To OP:
I can't honestly say that the vid in any way shows how XIV is flawed.

I think the OP only watched it to the point they said "JRPG's still..." and assumed the rest of the video was going to say how WoW is superior to Asian MMO's.

No, quite the contrary. "Progression systems can be a great tool to shape the learning curve" *ding*ding*ding*, we have a winner.

Then they mention "If the designer is measuring the Time Investment to Reward(ratio) but the Player is Effort Investment to Reward... you get the Destiny Loot Cave"

"From the players perspective, if the most efficient way to progress turns out to be the least interesting thing to do... you don't want that." The first thing that comes to mind are the Beast Tribes repeatables, which are interesting as you unlock them, but once unlocked are pointless to do except for mindlessly grinding.

The better point is the character narrative. "It's hard to write a character who's mechanically all about healing and protecting their companion, exactly the same way you would write a warrior who is all about hitting stuff with an axe". The example used is Final Fantasy.

"We shouldn't be putting in a progression system to disguise lack-luster gameplay" *points at all the freemium games.

[Amiaze]

name one game thats actually worth playing?

Arguably, Final Fantasy X-2. Just good enough to play, but perhaps not good enough to get addicted to. But that's pretty subjective.

Actually, in this case, it's incredibly subjective. >_>

[Zarzak]

Need to go back to EQ/FFXI design. Those games kept players playing for well over 10 years. I didn't play XI as much but in EQ it was well out of the norm to run into someone who didn't start playing in the 1999-2002 era and still play in 2012-2015.

I never ran out of relevant content to do to progress my character.

These days the system is "Oh you are ready for raid content? Welp bad news anything NOT raid content is basically 100% worthless to you." EQ/XI even raiders needed to do group content.

[LunaHoshino]

I'll use WoW again since it's fresh on my mind: I'd log in every day hoping today I'd get useful treasure from my garrison and today I'd get my loot drop and today I'd finish those goggles...then I realized I wasn't having fun. The game compelled me to keep playing but when I thought about it I realized I didn't really WANT to keep playing.

This is exactly why I quit Ragnarok Online too. I eventually realized that I was only logging in to grind for gear and cards that weren't even going to be much use to me because of the lack of meaningful content in the game that wasn't PvP or War of Empirium, neither of which particularly interested me. I wasn't engaged with the game world or any of that, I was just there to kill mobs for drops that had a horrendous drop rate.

With FFXIV, I'm invested in the world and the lore and the story and there is plenty of content to keep me busy in a fun way. Yes, there are grinds, but even the worst grind I've had in this game was nothing compared to the average grind in RO. What's more, we're guaranteed new content every couple of months, so there are always new things to look forward to.

This is the sort of progression I like because it actually FEELS like progression, not sitting in the same spot spinning your wheels.

[DkDerek]

I have no problem with gear grinds. Law, ESO etc. Those systems work well. The problem I have with ffxiv is the lack of....bosses. 4 relevant raid bosses in savage. And two dungeons.

Coming from wow, where I'm used to 10+ bosses in a raid tier. The 24 man's don't appeal to me at all, because they are done in a pug. They are also generally easy, and have crap drops. We essentially won't see more savage bosses for 6 months. 4 bosses every 6 months is sad.

[Assirra]

I have no problem with gear grinds. Law, ESO etc. Those systems work well. The problem I have with ffxiv is the lack of....bosses. 4 relevant raid bosses in savage. And two dungeons.

Coming from wow, where I'm used to 10+ bosses in a raid tier. The 24 man's don't appeal to me at all, because they are done in a pug. They are also generally easy, and have crap drops. We essentially won't see more savage bosses for 6 months. 4 bosses every 6 months is sad.

Honestly i was the same the first time i tried this game and quit because of it.

Now i came back and just taking the casual approach and loving it a lot more.

-not forcing myself to do roulettes for tomes if i don't want
- slowly leveling other classes instead of nothing but "main main main"
- actually going on with gathering/crafting classes
- taking my time with all the zones and quest text, you would be surprised how much you missed actually.

If you only play to raid, this is honestly not a good game.

[Fendred]

I have no problem with gear grinds. Law, ESO etc. Those systems work well. The problem I have with ffxiv is the lack of....bosses. 4 relevant raid bosses in savage. And two dungeons.

Coming from wow, where I'm used to 10+ bosses in a raid tier. The 24 man's don't appeal to me at all, because they are done in a pug. They are also generally easy, and have crap drops. We essentially won't see more savage bosses for 6 months. 4 bosses every 6 months is sad.

I agree, but I also think the end game dungeons should be places for newly minted 60 characters to hone their skill without fear of being rushed. People simultaneously complain about DD being a problem, but then have no qualms with forcing new players into speed run conditions. News flash: A tank telling totally random DD that he is testing them by chain pulling multiple packs of mobs in an expert level dungeon, punctuated with a smily, screams "that tank is an asshole" when new players are involved.

[DkDerek]

I agree, but I also think the end game dungeons should be places for newly minted 60 characters to hone their skill without fear of being rushed. People simultaneously complain about DD being a problem, but then have no qualms with forcing new players into speed run conditions. News flash: A tank telling totally random DD that he is testing them by chain pulling multiple packs of mobs in an expert level dungeon, punctuated with a smily, screams "that tank is an asshole" when new players are involved.

Not sure what you mean. I never said dungeons should be challenging. They shouldn't. I'm saying raids need more bosses. And we need more dungeons. Savage is tuned a bit too difficult IMO. The first two are tuned perfect. 3 and 4 are tuned fine if there was 8 bosses in between. But right now the gap is too big. It let's casuals in, and then demolishes them 2 bosses in. 99% of the raiding community is being utterly destroyed.