EC explains how the current progression system is flawed

[Zarzak]

And unfortunately nobody would ever play a game like that again.

Times have changed.

There are likely a million EQ/XI vets that would jump it like a free buffet at fat kid camp. Not to mention the milion + that would buy it to try it then quit.. Just like a majority of them do with modern MMOs too since you run out of things to do a couple months in.

Blizzards releases Twitter integration in a major content patch.

WoW STILL has the most Subs of any game in it's genre.

Clearly they are doing something right.

The fact that it is the gateway drug of MMOs doesn't make it a good game. That is like saying bud light is the best beer of all time because every 15 year old kid tries it out until they actually learn how bad it is.

WoW hemorrhages players like a Haemophiliac on blood thinners. EQ/XI kept players engaged for YEARS. Even serious raid groups replace large numbers of their force each year due to attrition in WoW. EQ losing more than 6-7% of your raiders a year was uncommon.

Much of WoW's success can be attributed to when it came out. It came out at an opportune time and reached critical mass quite early, and has been riding that wave.

^ So much this releasing when home computers/internet became widely accessible as well as people starting to trust the internet so every kid could get their parents to put their debit card online to pay for a monthly game sub.

[Pooky_Pasha]

snip

Both EQ and FFXI peaked in mid-2004 at about 550k each. After that, EQ fell off the map, losing 100k within a year and then losing another 250k in about 6 months. So within about 1.5 years, they lost 350k (or about 63% of their peak). FFXI, on the other hand, held steady until late-2008 (yep, Pre-Abyssea by about 2 years) when it started losing players. Both games have hemorrhaged as many players as the logistically can. Now, if either hemorrhage any more players, they're dead. In fact, FFXI is about to die regardless. It would be amazing if either game still had near 50k active subscribers now.

WoW, on the other hand, grew steadily (from release) for 6 years to its peak around October 2010 of about 12 million subscribers. Over the last 5 years, WoW has been in steady decline with the occasional expansion bump. It still, however, can boast 5.5+ million subscribers. The truth is, WoW has kept far more players engaged for far longer than EQ or FFXI. It was never close, and it still isn't close.

Here are some charts for comparison purposes. You could make a retention case for FFXI, but only if you looked at 2004-2009. With EQ, you could make it from 1999-2004. With WoW, you can see steady retention from the start, even with the steady decline after its peak until today.

Edit: I played FFXI from 2004-2009, and off-and-on since. I played WoW from 2009-FFXIV 1.0 release.

[DkDerek]

I have no problem with gear grinds. Law, ESO etc. Those systems work well. The problem I have with ffxiv is the lack of....bosses. 4 relevant raid bosses in savage. And two dungeons.

Coming from wow, where I'm used to 10+ bosses in a raid tier. The 24 man's don't appeal to me at all, because they are done in a pug. They are also generally easy, and have crap drops. We essentially won't see more savage bosses for 6 months. 4 bosses every 6 months is sad.

[Assirra]

I have no problem with gear grinds. Law, ESO etc. Those systems work well. The problem I have with ffxiv is the lack of....bosses. 4 relevant raid bosses in savage. And two dungeons.

Coming from wow, where I'm used to 10+ bosses in a raid tier. The 24 man's don't appeal to me at all, because they are done in a pug. They are also generally easy, and have crap drops. We essentially won't see more savage bosses for 6 months. 4 bosses every 6 months is sad.

Honestly i was the same the first time i tried this game and quit because of it.

Now i came back and just taking the casual approach and loving it a lot more.

-not forcing myself to do roulettes for tomes if i don't want
- slowly leveling other classes instead of nothing but "main main main"
- actually going on with gathering/crafting classes
- taking my time with all the zones and quest text, you would be surprised how much you missed actually.

If you only play to raid, this is honestly not a good game.

[Fendred]

I have no problem with gear grinds. Law, ESO etc. Those systems work well. The problem I have with ffxiv is the lack of....bosses. 4 relevant raid bosses in savage. And two dungeons.

Coming from wow, where I'm used to 10+ bosses in a raid tier. The 24 man's don't appeal to me at all, because they are done in a pug. They are also generally easy, and have crap drops. We essentially won't see more savage bosses for 6 months. 4 bosses every 6 months is sad.

I agree, but I also think the end game dungeons should be places for newly minted 60 characters to hone their skill without fear of being rushed. People simultaneously complain about DD being a problem, but then have no qualms with forcing new players into speed run conditions. News flash: A tank telling totally random DD that he is testing them by chain pulling multiple packs of mobs in an expert level dungeon, punctuated with a smily, screams "that tank is an asshole" when new players are involved.

[DkDerek]

I agree, but I also think the end game dungeons should be places for newly minted 60 characters to hone their skill without fear of being rushed. People simultaneously complain about DD being a problem, but then have no qualms with forcing new players into speed run conditions. News flash: A tank telling totally random DD that he is testing them by chain pulling multiple packs of mobs in an expert level dungeon, punctuated with a smily, screams "that tank is an asshole" when new players are involved.

Not sure what you mean. I never said dungeons should be challenging. They shouldn't. I'm saying raids need more bosses. And we need more dungeons. Savage is tuned a bit too difficult IMO. The first two are tuned perfect. 3 and 4 are tuned fine if there was 8 bosses in between. But right now the gap is too big. It let's casuals in, and then demolishes them 2 bosses in. 99% of the raiding community is being utterly destroyed.

[Higashikata]

Aren't these guys the clowns that supported paid mods on skyrim?

[NimueAstolat]

lol did spirit science make another account for gaming stuff? Shouldn't listen to that guy he's a nut-job. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZNsQMY1EWs

[Ryaz]

Ah, the good ol' Skinner Box. Diablo's whole premise is basically built around it.

[KaedrianLiang]

Talent Trees are already in FFXIV. They come in the form of more jobs/classes, that you can change between for free, you just have to take the time to level them up. Essentially each class is its own talent tree. For tanks we have auras that change them between dps worthy and tank worthy. What we lack are shape shifters.

PLD = prot paladin, with HW, a touch of holy.

WAR = Can switch between arms and a tank worthy fury war mid combat

DRK = Blood, Frost and Unholy death knight all in one kit. Which ever one you lean more towards is how you manage dark arts and what to use it with.

DRG = RET paladin/ARM warrior

MNK = combat rogue (keeping attack speed buff up) typically the best dps in WoW, typically the best dps in FFXIV.

NIN = assassination/subtle Rogue (cd management) but highly raid worthy in ffxiv.

BLM = frostfire bolt mage leaning more towards fire. (frost mage "WoW's PvP" spec, serves little purpose in the overall design behind this game)

SMN = destro and affliction warlock in 1 kit. SMN was kinda meh during ARR, to the point where i liked WoW's warlock more but it's finally branching far away from that idea in a very good way.

BRD = survival hunter (dots)

MCH = marksmanship hunter (more raw damage)

WHM = holy priest

AST = discipline priest

SCH = the most consistent damage output of the 3 healers so ill classify this as shadow priest. And the more umbral and unaspected nature of the class.



Though the finer details between WoW and FFXIV are obviously different. The base idea has been in front of you this whole time. I prefer FFXIV's armory system and assortment of classes.