EC explains how the current progression system is flawed

[Zephyranthes]

Such an annoying voice in that video.

[adn]

Amusing video, but I don't think that guy played WoW very much. There is a reason (not a good reason, but a reason) that the current WoW devs threw WoW's old talent system out the window.

That is because for most of WoW's lifespan, the majority of players preferred to simply google "best spec for [class]" rather than spend vast amounts of time theorycrafting some amazing new spec nobody had ever thought of. And for that matter, most of the time if you knew how your class worked, the best spec was very obvious, aside from a few "trap" talents that were actually useless (and if you took useless talents, you would often get called out by other players for it.)

Yes, you can argue that WoW's old talent system offered players a greater number of choices. The problem is that A LOT of those choices were nonviable for any sort of play, and people simply preferred to grab the cookie-cutter spec of the month so they can be #1 for dee pee ess.

I'm not too sure what this has to do with FFXIV in particular though. Is this about loot lockouts and eso caps? Because that's what it seems like OP is complaining about later on.

Final Fantasy 14 is not designed to be fun or entertaining to people. It is designed to keep people playing and producing cash for as long as possible.

OK then, let's hear some games that aren't designed to keep people playing. I would really love to hear about all these amazing and fun games that are designed so the developers will not make any money.

[Purrfectstorm]

FFXIV is based too much on extrinsic, rather than intrinsic, motivation. In FFXIV, the fun comes from the rewards much more so than the activities done to obtain the rewards. Most activities aren't fun in and of themselves. That's a real problem, especially when even the rewards are less exciting than in other games. We have ONE BiS set, it is ONLY obtainable from a combination of tomes and the current endgame raid, and the itemization is BLAND (yay bigger numbers).

This is how to fix FFXIV's problems:

- More customization - Multiple BiS options depending on your style/build (Yoshi apparently thinks "Builds? What are those?"), multiple avenues of obtaining BiS gear (reputation, crafting/gathering, etc.), and more interesting itemization (10% bonus to Rampart, Reduced Cooldown of Hallowed Ground, or whatever).

- Fewer grinds - If you're relying on extrinsic motivation to compel people to play, you need a system of rewards that pays people more reliably for their efforts. The original pony drop rate was so low that ponies felt like an excellent reward if you happened to get them, but where very few people would actively try to get them. The same is true of fishing at times, Triple Triad cards, etc. If you rely on extrinsic motivation, players need to be able to make a steady, measurable progress. Otherwise, players are doing activities with no intrinsic reward (i.e. not fun) AND no extrinsic reward (i.e. not ever achieving anything for time spent).

Note: This is IF you're relying on extrinsic motivation alone. Ideally, all game elements would be enjoyable in and of themselves (i.e. fun grinds).

- Focus more on improving intrinsic motivation - When you introduce a feature like Triple Triad, try to be less limiting about what cards players can use (or continue making tiers, like at 90 cards, for example) and don't give such unfair advantages to NPCs (like random rule when they have a pool of 5-7 cards and you have a pool of 90). If players have to challenge an NPC with rules like random and chaos, it feels like they're not even PLAYING Triple Triad (since 2 of the 3 decisions they make are stripped away from them). SE seems to find a way to ruin new features that would be fun (Triple Triad, Housing, etc.)

TLDR version of all of this: players need a deeper game than what FFXIV is. Until that happens, FFXIV is just a shallow lobby-game that relys on addiction-making elements (addiction in the true sense, not "I really, really enjoy this activity")

[karateorangutang]

So people want an MMO that isn't an MMO?

I thought grinding was just part and partial to the MMO formula.

[Purrfectstorm]

So people want an MMO that isn't an MMO?

I thought grinding was just part and partial to the MMO formula.

There are fun and unfun grinds. Generally, the more times you have to do the same exact activity and the less engaged your mind has to be while doing it (i.e. the easier it is), the more unfun it is. Running every level 50 dungeon a few times was more fun than running hundreds of the same types of Fates, for example. Of course, fun is subjective, but I think you'll find this true as a general rule.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

There are fun and unfun grinds

I think people are underestimating the fun that building a character is. Even when I was little I used to always love playing Final Fantasy and leveling my characters to 99, and getting them the best gear and armor. Unlocking secret legendary weapons, getting rare items, ect. These are the things that make RPGs in general fun.

It's not that FFXIV isn't fun, because it is. But they make it so easy to get to a point where you simply can't advance your character anymore due to walls. One wall is the time gate (where you only get a couple hours of progress each week) and the other wall is the monsterous jump in difficulty from Alexander Savage and everything else in the game. And I think that's when it starts to get boring, you realize you might as well log off because you can't actually make any progress anyways.

It's not that FFXIV isnt' fun, it's just that the fun goes away very quickly because people are trying to turn an MMO into something it isn't. An offline game where they can play by themselves and get every item really easily.

[Purrfectstorm]

I think people are underestimating the fun that building a character is. Even when I was little I used to always love playing Final Fantasy and leveling my characters to 99, and getting them the best gear and armor. Unlocking secret legendary weapons, getting rare items, ect. These are the things that make RPGs in general fun.

It's not that FFXIV isn't fun, because it is. But they make it so easy to get to a point where you simply can't advance your character anymore due to walls. One wall is the time gate (where you only get a couple hours of progress each week) and the other wall is the monsterous jump in difficulty from Alexander Savage and everything else in the game. And I think that's when it starts to get boring, you realize you might as well log off because you can't actually make any progress anyways.

It's not that FFXIV isnt' fun, it's just that the fun goes away very quickly because people are trying to turn an MMO into something it isn't. An offline game where they can play by themselves and get every item really easily.

I agree with everything you said except the last part. I don't think players are trying to turn this into a non-MMO, nor do I think it's a case of wanting to get every item easily. In FFXI, it was a chore to even get a map of the area you were in or increased inventory space, but I loved every minute of it. Again, it's subjective, but I don't think there are very many worthwhile goals in FFXIV. That is still an extrinsic motivation issue though because game systems should be fun independent of what the rewards or goals are. One of the map quests in FFXI involved riding the Selbina ship back and forth hoping for a pirate spawn. I spent 8 hours doing this once while watching TV. This was very unfun. But there were plenty of other quests that were far less mindless and far less RNG dependent.

In every game there are examples of what should and should not be done. FFXIV also has plenty of both. Personally, I'd love it if the best stuff from FFXI (interesting gear, job customization, open world, etc.) was merged with the best stuff from FFXIV (graphics, quest markers, combat system, etc.). Quite frankly, I've thought about going back to FFXI because I think overall it is a better game (better in terms of depth mostly) but I haven't because my partner and I play on different platforms. I have recently begun to look into other MMOs (MMOs because the social, party aspect appeals to me, regardless of whatever single player elements I'd like to see) and right now FFXIV has the advantage because:

- pretty graphics
- cross platform
- other MMOs are worse

But give me a FFXI/EverQuest, old school MMO where the journey (quests, leveling, etc.) is as interesting as the destination (endgame, endgame, endgame), that's cross platform, with decent graphics, and I'm gone. I think this sentiments like this are important for SE to take note of because "Settling for your game because lack of options" is not the best reason to continue playing. Sure, they make money in the short-term, but it doesn't make loyal customers that will play for many years.

[Stanelis]

FFXIV is based too much on extrinsic, rather than intrinsic, motivation. In FFXIV, the fun comes from the rewards much more so than the activities done to obtain the rewards. Most activities aren't fun in and of themselves. That's a real problem, especially when even the rewards are less exciting than in other games. We have ONE BiS set, it is ONLY obtainable from a combination of tomes and the current endgame raid, and the itemization is BLAND (yay bigger numbers).

That's exactly the issue in FFXIV. I think it has to do with how SE seems intend to cut development costs.

So people want an MMO that isn't an MMO?

I thought grinding was just part and partial to the MMO formula.

What made wow popular was that the game removed most of the tedious elements (including long grinds, those in wow were rather shorts, grinding a zodiac weapon in FFXIV was far grindier than any content of wow) which were found in the games when it was released.

OK then, let's hear some games that aren't designed to keep people playing. I would really love to hear about all these amazing and fun games that are designed so the developers will not make any money.

Wow was quite entertaining (and still is to some extent) and I'm pretty sure blizzard made quite a bunch of money with it.

[Velhart]

There is no magical workaround for grinding, content gating, and skinner box tactics. No matter how hard you try, these elements are pretty much necessary to create longevity in an MMO. None of us have a solution for this. We all complain about it, and it is your right to do so, but no one at the end of the day are giving any good ideas. You can pull the FFXI/Everquest card, but it is really trading a design with flaws for another design with flaws.

[Fendred]

@Zarzak

It seems they want to take FFXIV:ARR in the general direction of earlier MMORPGs, at least to a point. Yoshida was supposedly surprised by how well received the Hunt system was pre-expansion, and in 3.1 they are introducing the FC airship content, which is somewhat related to burning circle notorious monsters from FFXI. They are experimenting with non-WoW instanced and non-instanced content, but I think it will be several years before we see them start to move away from dungeon grind as the primary engine of progress.

Edit: And I don't mean that as though I think they are sluggish as developers. It just takes a long time for features to come out. I think Ghostcrawler (WoW Dev) answered someone's question pertaining to the subject of competitor features and he said it would take developers 4-6 months to make a feature matching something in a competing product.