Paladin need to be review.

[Xenosan]

All DRK AoE is magical, Bloodbath is only physical. It has limited performance in multi-target for DRK. Abyssal Drain's Dark Arts requirement comes at a MP cost that takes away from other DRK abilities - especially DA > Passenger. Blood Price is not guaranteed MP return (is the WHM using Holy?) so a rotation can not be fleshed out. Elsewhere WAR has CDs & WS rotation for AoE that is locked & synergy between all those abilities for added mitigation, self healing, & DPS. WAR > DRK > PLD AoE.

See, that's what we're getting at. The skill set we gained in HW was to shore up the weaknesses that every class had, but the biggest weakness for PLD, their lack of AoE, was not something we had fixed. They gained more single target DPS, yes, but they didn't gain a single AoE ability.

^I think that's the case for some classes, like SMN MNK, but not all, and even then some abilities just aren't well integrated or don't entirely 'fix' the weaknesses - or introduce new weaknesses. The 52-60 abilities are hit and miss for a lot of jobs. Regarding PLD:

All but Royal Authority are 1.0 GLA crossovers. Sheltron is a nerfed Aegis Boon. Divine Veil is a 'better' Divine Succor (but Succor generated hate, Veil doesn't), Clemency is about the same but slower due to 1.0's faster GCD. Goring IMO is the one skill crossover'd effectively. Clemency, Divine Veil, and Royal Authority - any of these 3 I'd trade for War Drum or Phalanx.

The problem with War Drum & Phalanx is I feel that for 3.0, they'd serve better as Job Traits that enhance Shield Swipe, CoS, or Clemency, but 3.0 there are no job traits

Also, the fact that Royal Authority is the lvl60 ability, is 'new', but offers no additional effect buff or debuff is disapointing IMO.

[Desteroth]

Sheltron just needs to get changed to block the next attack in general. There are attacks that we can block / parry but Sheltron only works for autoattacks pretty much.

[Aldora]

On what you base that argument, i am curious? Flash is resisted, so don't even count on it to defend you.

The Blind effect is resisted, not the generation on Enmity. You keep clinging on the idea that Flash needs to deal damage. But, like i said in my post. That just doesn't make any sense.

Compare to other class that can AoE DPS + leech HP, how PLD even match that? PLD have Clemency, how that is even possible to use against multi-target?

Please elaborate your sentence, because i don't even see how PLD have greater defense against multi-target encounter.

Nothing prevent war to use Equilibrium for 6~11k HP restore, and is OFF GCD, so is Second Wind, WAR defensive cool down recast are way faster. But ya, please explain me how PLD have stronger defense, because i don't see 1 solid argument plausible.

The thing is, Clemency is not a healing ability, but a healing spell. Due to this, it has a casting time and can be interrupted when attacked. So, you can't really compare a healing spell with an ability like the Warrior is using and thus cannot be considered a defensive ability. It's a support spell which heals the target with a potency of 1200 with the additional effect that it restores the Paladin's health with 50% of HP restored to the target if target is a party member.

Since you the tanks are the primary targets for their heals, you should not have to use Clemency on yourself, but could rather be used on another party member between pulls.

Please. tell me you where not serious with this... 10 second maybe, but is only 1 block guaranteed, is a joke with 5 monster on you. Any small difference count, but, please don't compare that with longer Raw Intuition effect + quicker recast + 100% guaranteed. This isnt serious. I mean, nice it return MP so we can flash more for 0 DMG, and fail to cast more Clemency.

Yes, i am serious about Sheltron. Even though it only blocks 1 physical attack, it still a guaranteed block once every 30 seconds. Since it's off the global cooldown, it's silly not to take advantage of it. Heck, you even get MP back for Flash and Clemency. So, yes. I'm dead serious about that skill.

And finally, you also have Divine Veil. It prevents damage up to 10% of Paladin's max HP for 30s on all party members within 15y for 30s (except for the Paladin who casted it). You can use that so that your fellow party members will get less damage, including the off tank.

So, when it comes to defensive abilities, a Paladin has:

• Rampart
• Sentinel
• Bulwark
• Awareness
• Convalesence
• Foresight
• Divine Veil
• Sheltron

It is our job as Paladins to use these skills wisely.

Tell that to Yoshi, not to me. I never asked to be in a DPS rush to stay alive. More DPS turn out into LESS damage taken, is not a complex system. With bloodbath, the more DPS you do, the more HP you get back, is a simple mechanic and every JOB except PLD can take advantage of multi-target.

No, i'm not telling that to Yoshida. I'm telling that to everyone who are currently saying that the DPS check it too high and that classes need to be rebalanced in order to get passed the said DPS check. I've read the forum posts where people are saying you get less damage because you kill your target faster. While that is true, you must never lose sight of survivability. A tank needs to take a beating, the healers need to keep everyone alive and the DPS need to squeeze every digit of DPS they possibly can. If both the healers and the tanks have more breathing room outside of their primary goal, then they can assist the DPS with the damage they can dish out.

Dishing out 7000+ DPS on (for instance) Faust is great, but if a tank can't survive the beating or the healer cannot keep up, then it doesn't mean anything.

Like i said in my previous post:

But, if we aren't able to copy their achievements, then shouldn't we look as ourselves as see what we are doing wrong, rather then complaining that a Paladin doesn't deal enough AoE damage?

Sure, we all want to beat it. But, from my perspective, this is getting silly...

I mean, Alexander Savage was released while the max iLevel you could get was 189. The raid drops iLevel 210 gear and we can save up Tomes for iLevel 200 gear.

This is not what people will want to hear, but... If we can't clear it with our current composition and gear, we need to train more while getting better gear. Eventually we too are able to clear the content.

Other players have been able to clear A2 Savage within the first few days of it's release. So, it's possible. But it's sure as hell not going to be easy.

For the Paladin it's weakness is a lack of dealing AoE damage + lack of AoE defense.

That is more correct.

I'm sorry, but "lack of AoE defense"? Now you are starting to grasp as straws and i'm finding it hard to take your comments seriously.

Alexander Savage is meant to be a challenge and if you cannot meet the DPS check, just because you believe that a Paladin doesn't deal enough AoE damage and thus is not suited for the job, you might want to rethink your strategy as a group. If you still believe that the Paladin is not suited for the job, then i'm really sorry, but i can't help you there. You can still give Dark Knight or Warrior a shot.

I've said all that i wanted to say here.

[Galactimus]

So, when it comes to defensive abilities, a Paladin has:

Blocking
Parrying
Rampart
Sentinel
Bulwark
Awareness
Convalesence
Foresight
Divine Veil
Sheltron
Hallowed Ground

Cover
Shield Bash
Shield Swipe (meh, maybe not)

Stoneskin
Clemency
Protect

Agreed. Added a few of my own.

- There's no contest once you throw a Paladins ability to block into the mix
- If Divine Veil counts as a Defensive Ability (for the party) then I would include Cover as well.
- On mobs that can be stunned, Shield Bash is one of the greatest Defensive Abilities in the game.
- Hallowed Ground OP


Spells
~~~~
Stoneskin and Clemency are spells but they are still Defensive spells. Spells which can be cast before Tank Busters. Nothing is hitting you during the Hypercompressed Plasma cast bar in A1 Savage. It's incredibly easy to cast a Stoneskin or Clemency right after he frontal Cleaves you. Bosses have invincibility phases too; any downtime for a Paladin can be turned into stoneskinning defensive support. Stoneskin your healers or people with resurrection sickness. I would toss Protect on the list too, as when someone dies to mechanics, it's usually best for a Paladin to recast Protect mid-fight rather than the over-worked Healers.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

For the Paladin it's weakness is a lack of dealing AoE damage, but it gets a great defense in return. But, that specific kind of play style suits me perfectly.

So i asked you >.>

On what you base that argument, i am curious? Flash is resisted, so don't even count on it to defend you. Compare to other class that can AoE DPS + leech HP, how PLD even match that? PLD have Clemency, how that is even possible to use against multi-target?

Please elaborate your sentence, because i don't even see how PLD have greater defense against multi-target encounter.

So once again, i ask you to elaborate... how PLD turn out to be MORE DEFENSIVE again Multi-Target while we have weaker AoE against them.

I'm sorry, but "lack of AoE defense"? Now you are starting to grasp as straws and i'm finding it hard to take your comments seriously.

Fine.. then you wont have any issue to explain me how PLD have better defense compare to WAR and DRK on multi-Enemy.

Here to help you out to see my point:

Hallowed Ground is best Tank CD ever, but is 7 minute recast for a little 10 sec invincible. Sure that would be way superior if A2S had ONLY one massive wave to handle, but the fact is, A2S have 9~ Wave, and last 10 min long, so is good if you can use this once. (Unless you insist to use HG on the first 2 golin in the initial pull >.<)

Now i don't know if you ever tght about it, WAR in defiance have 25% MORE HP and 20% healing bonus, is the same as having Shield Oath active. (Of course is not working for lustrate, but do we really care? WAR with 5 wrath get 10% Crit + Internal release = 20% + they base Crit Rate, pop berserk and hello 6 to 11k HP return with Equilibrium then hello 2~4k HP with Second Wind, and that is every ~1 min >.>

So what else is left to compare?

Sentinel(40% for 10 sec) = 3 min recast, can be use 3 time max in A2S
Vengence(30% for 15 sec) = 2 min recast, can be use 5 time in A2S

Rampart(20% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 Recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Inner Beast (20% for 6 Sec) = 22.5 sec Recast, can be use 26x in A2S (And i am ignoring the FREE one you get every minute with Infuriate etc..)

Raw Intuition (Parry 100% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Bulwark (Block increase by 60%... for 15 sec) = recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Hallowed Ground (Invincible for 10 sec) = Recast 7 min, can be use once per A2S
Holmgang (HP can't go less than 1 HP for 6 sec) = Recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Storm's Path is yet another 10% reduction on single target.
Rage of Halone, reduce STR by 10%, so is very similar by time monster is not magic.

Thrill of Battle, increase HP by 20% for 20 sec. (every 2 min) [Restore 20% HP as well]
There is Nothing like that on PLD.

Equilibrium 6k to 11k HP return
Clemency 100% interrupted against multi-target

Second Wind 2~4k HP
Stoneskin 100% interrupted against multi-target


So ya, if you pay attention to this, you figure quick that PLD have for fact stronger CD, but the recast time penalize them by a lots, and if they are constant active tanking, they are quickly left with zero CD.

If you still believe that the Paladin is not suited for the job, then i'm really sorry, but i can't help you there. You can still give Dark Knight or Warrior a shot.

Sure, that make sense, when a job is unbalanced/unsuited for new content, just stop play the job and move on till next content. Following you analogy on this, WAR would still be at 2.0 with no defense, sure we could all be trolling and say: "But WAR is not mean to mitigate dmg!"

[Desteroth]

Bulwark, best multi target defensive cd there is.
Raw intuition is nice, but if you have to dodge anything your gonna get a bunch of crits from autoattacks from not being in the front.


I'm happy with pld as is , except for Clemency cast time / interrupt and sheltron only blocking auto attacks


*coming from a pld who beat A2*
I have no issues with cds in a2 at all timing wise.

[Galactimus]

So what else is left to compare?

A Paladins ability to Block is a pretty massive benefit for multi-enemies. I would also compare the fact that a Paladin is very straight-forward, easy, mitigation.


Warrior has a far riskier play style. Do you Steel Cyclone a pack of adds in AS2 to beat enrage? Do you pop a six second Inner Beast instead? It only lasts for 6 seconds in a wave that is pounding you senseless for 30 seconds. Will Inner Beast be ready in time for the next double-doll cleave? With Raw Intuition activated and a second nearby bomb about to explode do you run away and take massive crits? Popping any of your healing abilities at the wrong time simply become massive over-cures because your healer beat you to it. Holmgang is useless if you never drop to 1 HP; and its root can sometimes get you (then your party) killed. Lot's of risky game play for an equal result if played perfect.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

Raw intuition is nice, but if you have to dodge anything your gonna get a bunch of crits from autoattacks from not being in the front.

Awareness

A Paladins ability to Block is a pretty massive benefit for multi-enemies. I would also compare the fact that a Paladin is very straight-forward, easy, mitigation.


Warrior has a far riskier play style. Do you Steel Cyclone a pack of adds in AS2 to beat enrage? Do you pop a six second Inner Beast instead? It only lasts for 6 seconds in a wave that is pounding you senseless for 30 seconds. Will Inner Beast be ready in time for the next double-doll cleave? With Raw Intuition activated and a second nearby bomb about to explode do you run away and take massive crits? Popping any of your healing abilities at the wrong time simply become massive over-cures because your healer beat you to it. Holmgang is useless if you never drop to 1 HP; and its root can sometimes get you (then your party) killed. Lot's of risky game play for an equal result if played perfect.

They have the choice to risk it, or play safe, none the less, they can adjust they play style at anytime they wish, and that without any single penalty [switch from Deliverance to Defiance don't cancel any combo, and still keep stack, it have 0 negative effect]

Every 22.5 sec, WAR have choice to Steel Cyclone [200 AoE Potency] or Decimate [280 AoE potency] , or Inner beast [Rampart effect for 6 sec] and they even get extra one every 1 min with infuriate, and i am not even going to talk about the extra 3/5 stack they get from Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

Regardless, PLD have no Rampart every 22.5 sec and no AoE DMG.

[Desteroth]

Awareness

Now your using 2 cds for the almost same effect of one cd. Raw intuition will still not do anything unless you are facing the target Directly. Bulwark will work no matter which direction the mob is hitting you.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

Now your using 2 cds for the almost same effect of one cd. Raw intuition will still not do anything unless you are facing the target Directly. Bulwark will work no matter which direction the mob is hitting you.

LOL, well At least, that was a funny joke =)

But no, as much i would like this to be true, Shield work same as Parry, only work if you face encounter, fail on flank and back, same as Raw Intuition.

This is also the case for Sheltron, won't block anything until you face the target.

In Revenge, AoE attack are considered "all direction" and is blockable.

In Theory since an AoE is all direction, Raw Intuition should still parry + get a CRIT hit at same time. but no, they just parry the attack. [not going to argue about this small detail]