Paladin need to be review.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

I am happy with:

Royal Authority [Powerful combo]
Goring Blade [VERY Powerful DoT/combo]

The part i am not happy:

Clemency [Powerful healing ability, but it is interupted 75% of the time, and at a COST of your GCD, killing your combo as well. Every time is interrupted, is a 150+ DMG potency lost]

The part i am very unhappy:

Shield Block DEX/STR no longer affects Parry or Block since 3.0
Clemency Potency is increased by (Attack Power) => STR.

Flash [Since 2.0, almost everything RESIST the effect of it, it deal 0 DMG, and it prevent Paladin to perform any DPS during 2.5 sec, so is a 150+ Potency DMG lost every time we use it]

It be awesome, if they could make Flash an AoE DMG, of course, that don't have to be mega powerful, but at least, PLD is dealing dmg on multiple enemy while holding enmity.



As right now, the only AoE PLD have is Circle of Scorn:
100 potency +30 potency Dot for 15 sec = 280 total over 15 sec, but the recast is 25 sec =/
Flash = 2.5sec, 10Flash = 25 sec.
Total AoE DMG potency in 25 sec = 280.


On WAR: Overpower = 120 potency every 2.5 sec
Total AoE DMG potency in 25 sec = 1200.

On DRK: Unleash = Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies every 2.5sec.
Total AoE DMG potency in 25 sec = 1000.

If Flash had a 50 AoE dmg potency, pld would be able to do at least 780 AoE DMG potency over 25 sec, that still way lower than WAR and DRK, but at least they do some dmg >.>

What they could do is, every time you do Royal Authority, you get a 15~25 sec buff icon that make flash DEAL DMG instead of blinding enemy, since Royal Authority is lv60, that would not give any advantage to old content, nor would unbalance anything. It would also prevent other class to deal DMG with flash.

I COULD see a change is in Shield Swipe, by changing it to a 90 degree frontal cone for about 5 yalms with damage similar to Overpower while still on its low TP cost.

That could also be a good FIX, instead of making flash do dmg. Paired with Bloodbath + Fight or Flight + Bulwark, PLD could stay alive better, deal decent dmg, hold enmity better.

Side note:
Abyssal Drain and Dark Passenger, is another multi-target dmg that DRK can do.
Decimate and Steel Cyclone is another multi-target dmg that WAR can do.
Vengeance also do 50 potency reflect dmg on Multi-target for WAR.

Paladin really need AoE DMG, is not like i am asking DEV to make Paladin over powerful, but more balanced compared to other Tank class.

If you want to make runs faster, play WAR/DRK.

Running faster, is the mind set of finishing a dungeon, and that was never an issue with me, but when it come to Enrage VS success, is not only about the speed you kill enemy, but about the success or fail.

As long as PLD has block for trash packs, they shouldn't get to do more damage. PLD gets more mitigation, WAR/DRK get more damage. If you want to make them even safer, play PLD. Stop trying to make them all the same, each job has advantages and disadvantages.

That was true before they give WAR Raw Intuition and Equilibrium, WAR can mitigate as much as PLD, if not better in fact. But is all fine with me if community want to keep up a myth about WAR being a weak tank compare to PLD, you can believe that i have no problem with it.


WAR/DRK: http://www.twitch.tv/xenosysvex/v/9778547

PLD/DRK: http://www.twitch.tv/fenrir_ilax/v/8683028

PLD/PLD: http://www.twitch.tv/fenrir_ilax/v/9121233


Deffensive wise, there is not a huge gap at all, but DPS wise when it come to multi-Target, the difference is day and night. And let not even talk about WAR on single target with a triple Fell Cleave with berserk on.

If i post a video about PLD MT in shield oath in A2S on a monster pack, you would laught hard (300~400ish dps max) currently isnt viable to use PLD MT mob pack.

Is not about how good you are at that point, but the AoE limitation that PLD offer vs DRK or WAR, holding more than 1 monster make PLD lose DPS by a huge factor. (each flash = 150+ potency DMG lost)

War's DPS is high, yes. But in exchange, a WAR takes a hell of a lot more damage and thus the healer can't do nearly as much DPS. When I'm with a PLD, I at least get a chance to pop on Cleric's Stance and play with some of my DPS toys on scholar. A good DRK, too. When I'm with a WAR, even a very good one, they're going to be yo-yoing too much and take too much from each hit for me to rely on Eos keeping them in the safe zone.

If you watch video with WAR MT Faust, you can see SCH doing pretty good dmg, that isnt even an issue if played right, i don't really see SCH do much better with 2 PLD tank, that a pure myth.

PLD VS WAR [For who still think that war is a WEAK Tank and justify the lack of AoE on PLD]

Hallowed Ground is best Tank CD ever, but is 7 minute recast for a little 10 sec invincible. Sure that would be way superior if A2S had ONLY one massive wave to handle, but the fact is, A2S have 9~ Wave, and last 10 min long, so is good if you can use this once. (Unless you insist to use HG on the first 2 golin in the initial pull >.<)

Now i don't know if community ever realize this, WAR in defiance have 25% MORE HP and 20% healing bonus, is the same as having Shield Oath active (to not say better because of lustrate). Lustrate is not affected by defiance and for a good reason, WAR would get a 45% bonus on lustrate, that be very unfair. (it was unfair and well abused in 2.xx) Lustrate still very powerful on WAR specially since they have 25% HP increase in Defiance and another 20% with Thrill of Battle.

So what else is left to compare?

Sentinel(40% for 10 sec) = 3 min recast, can be use 3 time max in A2S
Vengence(30% for 15 sec) = 2 min recast, can be use 5 time in A2S

Rampart(20% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 Recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Inner Beast (20% for 6 Sec) = 22.5 sec Recast, can be use 26x in A2S (And i am ignoring the FREE one you get every minute with Infuriate etc..)

Raw Intuition (Parry 100% for 20 sec) = 1 min 30 recast, can be use 6.5 time in A2S
Bulwark (Block increase by 60%... for 15 sec) = recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Hallowed Ground (Invincible for 10 sec) = Recast 7 min, can be use once per A2S
Holmgang (HP can't go less than 1 HP for 6 sec) = Recast 3 min, can be use 3 time per A2S

Storm's Path is yet another 10% reduction on single target.
Rage of Halone, reduce STR by 10%, so is very similar by time monster is not magic.

Thrill of Battle, increase HP by 20% for 20 sec. (every 2 min) [Restore 20% HP as well] (Instant/OFF GCD, prevent nothing and cancel nothing)
There is Nothing like that on PLD.

Equilibrium 6k to 11k HP return every 60 sec. (Instant/OFF GCD, prevent nothing and cancel nothing)
Clemency 100% interrupted against multi-target (Cancel any combo even if is interrupted, 3 sec to cast) **2.5 sec to recast, but take 3 sec to cast, any logic there? I suppose if we had Swiftcast, we would need to wait 2.5 sec?

Second Wind 2~4k HP every 2 min. (Instant/OFF GCD, prevent nothing and cancel nothing)
Stoneskin 100% interrupted against multi-target (Cancel any combo even if is interrupted, 2.5 sec to cast)

STR no longer affects Parry or Block Strength since 3.0 but Clemency Potency is increased by Attack Power => STR
Because PLD needed that Shield Block NERF in 3.0

I find it funny that as a Warrior Main, I'm fine with PLD buffs, but there's a wall of no coming from every direction. Paladin is no longer the king of defense everyone thinks it is. It actually loses HEAVILY in that category when there is magic damage involved. You can neither block, nor parry magical damage, which negates several CDs on all tanks, but also completely nullifies any use a Paladin gets out of their shield. In addition, Rage of Halone affects STR, not Int, while a Warrior lowers all damage by 10%, and a DRK lowers Int by 10%. I'd even go so far as to say they're hardly even the best physical tank anymore, with both DRK and WAR gaining access to parry based CDs, in the form of Dark Dance, and Raw Intuition, making Bulwark look sad in comparison. In the time it takes a PLD to get Bulwark back, a DRK has used Dark Dance 3 times, and a WAR has used Raw Intuition twice.

Oh, but what about raw defensive CDs, you say? Oh yes, the PLD's bread and butter. Good old Rampart, and Sentinel. 20% for 20 seconds of 90, and 40% for 10 seconds of 180. Looks like the DRK might lose, with 20% for 20 seconds of 90, and only 30% for 10 seconds of 180. Except, oh, wait. They get an ability that reduces all MAGICAL damage taken by 30% for 10 seconds of 60. Where's PLDs magical damage stopper? They don't get one. Even the Warrior has more uptime on their raw mitigation CDs. Inner Beast is 20% reduction for 6 seconds, and can be up almost every 20 seconds, if you don't use CDs to bring it up sooner. It also heals. And Vengeance is 30% for 15 seconds of 120, which also gives you a Wrath stack to use on... Guess what, Inner Beast. And, it acts as a damage reflect, which can be combined with Bloodbath for healing. WAR gets the superior version of that, too, lasting twice as long as a tank that crossclasses it.

Speaking of Bloodbath, let's compare the crossclass Tank CDs. Obviously, Bloodbath, which is 25% of all physical damage you do as a heal, for 15 seconds on a non-WAR, who gets it for 30. Awareness, which stops critical damage you take, gives a 10 second boost to PLD, being 25 seconds instead of 15. Convalescence is also 30% boost in healing on a PLD, compared to 20% for DRK or WAR, except simply by virtue of being a WAR in Defiance, the WAR already has a base 20% boost to all healing taken. There is also Foresight, which is a 90 second CD on a Warrior, rather than the 120 second CD on any other tank.

Those are the tank CDs that all tanks get a chance to share. DRK gets access to both WAR and PLD abilities, allowing them to take from both tanks. But what do WAR or PLD get? WAR gains MNK abilities, such as Internal release, to increase critical chance, something a WAR is already very fond of. They also get Second Wind, for a self heal, that while not as powerful as Equilibrium is still nothing to sneeze at. A PLD? Stuck with CNJ abilities. For the sake of discussion, I'm going to assume we all realize how useless Cure, Protect, or Raise are. Which leaves Stoneskin. Which is an okay CD. 10% of your HP in a barrier. It's alright. Something to take the edge off a hit. PLD does get a nice ability there. The cast time, on the other hand, suffers the same problem as Clemency. It's too long. In the time it takes you to cast it, you could easily be interrupted, since it's your face that's currently being beat on.

So, tell me again, how the PLD is the king of all things defense. Because yes, for a time, they were the Alpha, and Omega of Main Tanks. The undisputed champion of getting their face beat in. But fights are shifting. And the tanks themselves are shifting. Both WAR and DRK bring a fairly massive toolkit to the fight, especially in a magical damage environment, something the PLD is not equipped to deal with. There are AoE fights, on top of that. Again, something the PLD is not equipped to deal with. This talk of "The Paladin trades off AoE damage for being the best defensive tank" is not only wrong, it's sad. Because they are no longer the best defensive tank, not with the balancing that SE did in 3.0. But while both WAR and DRK got ways to deal with the upcoming raids, and how they were designed, PLD got more of the same. More ways to be a physical wall. And finally, a way to cause fairly decent damage. Both of those were a GOOD thing. But the one thing that a PLD is horribly, horribly bad at, AoE tanking, was left in the dust. That's why we are asking for a little bit of damage. A PLD doesn't have to compare to DRK and WAR. It has its niche. But to completely exclude it from doing any damage during an AoE intensive fight? That just seems like an oversight.

Thanks for your post Isala.

[Gilthas]

I'm pretty sure that you can't spam 10 Overpowers in 25 seconds without something feeding you TP, but it's not like that's something I usually do on WAR.

You're also ignoring that after PLD uses Circle of Scorn, there's really no need for them to spam Flash for 25 seconds either.

Yes, WAR and DRK do better AoE damage than PLD, but your math is completely one-sided in order to exaggerate the differences.

EDIT: Ran out of posts so...

Yep, was wrong on the Overpower spam.

But when it come to Multi-Enemy, the difference in DPS is not 20%~50% less. but more about 200% to 400% DMG less.

200% to 400% less damage? Do PLDs heal mobs with their AoE now? Now that's a real problem....

[Pr0c3ss0r]

I'm pretty sure that you can't spam 10 Overpowers in 25 seconds without something feeding you TP, but it's not like that's something I usually do on WAR.

You're also ignoring that after PLD uses Circle of Scorn, there's really no need for them to spam Flash for 25 seconds either.

Yes, WAR and DRK do better AoE damage than PLD, but your math is completely one-sided in order to exaggerate the differences.

You can do 10x OP if you like, not saying that is how WAR should play, it was more to compare.
They don't need to spam Flash x10, it the same logic as WAR with OP, but if they have to hold Multi-target, PLD have no choice at all to actually spam flash at some level. 2,3, 5 time, all depend on many factor.

I am sorry if my post sounded exaggerated for you, i was just pointing out the difference. PLD as it is atm, lose a big chunk of DPS when it come to multi target, and the DPS lost is insane compare to other 2 Tank class.

[Isala]

I'm pretty sure that you can't spam 10 Overpowers in 25 seconds without something feeding you TP, but it's not like that's something I usually do on WAR.

You're also ignoring that after PLD uses Circle of Scorn, there's really no need for them to spam Flash for 25 seconds either.

Yes, WAR and DRK do better AoE damage than PLD, but your math is completely one-sided in order to exaggerate the differences.

Overpower costs 130 TP per use. 10 Overpowers = 1300 TP. In that time, you get 10 ticks of 60 TP, so 600 TP. Which means that 1300 - 600 = 700 TP used. Leaving you with 300 TP to spare. That's not including any TP gains from Deliverance Equilibrium, or even a use of Infuriate > Steel Cyclone. So, about 12 Overpowers is the limit of what you can spam before TP empties.

I think what the OP is getting at, however, isn't related to threat, but rather that PLD is currently the worst tank to bring for any AoE pulls, simply due to having absolutely dismal AoE DPS. A Paladin holding AoE threat cannot put out any significant DPS during a pull, unlike a Warrior, or Dark Knight. This is a rather noticeable issue in something like A2, when the goal is to burst down the waves as fast as possible.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

PLD is currently the worst tank to bring for any AoE pulls, simply due to having absolutely dismal AoE DPS. A Paladin holding AoE threat cannot put out any significant DPS during a pull, unlike a Warrior, or Dark Knight. This is a rather noticeable issue in something like A2, when the goal is to burst down the waves as fast as possible.

Yes, that the exact problem currently, and specially in A2 is a huge problem where DPS is very sensitive. Flash bring 0 utility + penalize PLD DPS. Every flash = 0 DPS for the next 2.5 sec.

If Royal Authority would give an special icon that make flash deal DMG instead of blinding enemy, then you could still use flash to blind enemy in dungeon, and use flash as DPS in raid.

[Synestra]

Yes, that the exact problem currently, and specially in A2 is a huge problem where DPS is very sensitive.

Let WAR or DRK take all small f..kers while PLD sticks with bigger ones? just a tought as why put "inferior" AoE tanker to that when he could exel better when handling 2-3 enemies?

[Pr0c3ss0r]

Let WAR or DRK take all small f..kers while PLD sticks with bigger ones? just a tought as why put "inferior" AoE tanker to that when he could exel better when handling 2-3 enemies?

This would work great if A2S had only 1 single pack of mob to handle, but no, there is more than one and you have no choice to have both tank handle it. The quick fix atm is stop play PLD for A2S, struggle with it or wait DPS get better gear to carry PLD in A2S.

[AcaciaTyrannia]

Right. As someone who actually tanks in Savage Alexander, I can tell you for a FACT paladin mitigation is worlds ahead of warriors. Paladin also are near required for A2 (And really 3 if you want to be safe.) You're upset paladin can't parse like warrior, but really that just shows your fundamental lack of understanding in the job.




Warriors mitigate as well as, or better than paladins.. lol thank you, I needed a morning laugh.

[CosmicKirby]

Snip for Char count

The loot system for Alex Savage is basically designed to last for at least 2 months already. You need 8 tokens from the last turn to get a guaranteed piece of loot, that's 8 weekly resets. Even if only a small group of statics can complete them ASAP, I doubt the vast majority of the raiding community will have absolutely no reason to raid Alex Savage by 3.1.
It's assumed that if the content is in the game, it's designed to be possibly obtainable and beaten, better gear and iLevels just lowers the barrier for entry significantly.
Stares at Dusk Leather

Snip

My static has been running WAR and DRK, probably going to clear A2 this sunday. DPS isn't a problem at all for us, but getting into position for the 4 Jagd doll wave, and the wave after (7 and 8?) requires them to be very precise with their mitigation to survive. I imagine a PLD would have an easier time.

[Terribad]

So if I understood the OP right, they want more aoe damage for paladins?

Each class is different (VERY SLIGHTLY) paladins are not aoe/damage tanks. In no mmo I've played was the paladin a damage/aoe type tank. There's different classes for different reasons. Why does everyone have to be the same? You want aoe/damage? Go Drk/War. You want block and mitigation? Go Paladin.