Enjoy Summoner before it gets nerfed...

[kisada]

btw about the glass cannon stuff: lost in all this is that smn has zero native defensive cd's. compare that to blm that has an instant sleep, and manawall/manaward. a very high dps class with little to no defensive utility is a pretty typical way for developers to balance their classes. that's what smn is all about.

smn definitely has overpowered damage. but they are so lacking in virtually everything else that if you just key in on them a bit they tend to die quickly. if you misstep just once on smn you're dead, but if you play it well you're rewarded with the opportunity to maximize your damage potential. that's how glass cannons work. so it'd be prudent to take the overall job into account and not just the one flashy side.

[QCrimson]

smn definitely has overpowered damage. but they are so lacking in virtually everything else

No they're not. Contrary to the BLM they can run, sprint even, while dishing out close to 100% of their dmg potential. You don't seem to be realizing that. I'll take that over defensive CDs anyday in the current pvp environment. And you clearly have no idea what you're talking about if you think that random dots/banes amount to no impact in fronts. Sure you won't get many kills this way, but the dmg DOES matter and can eventually overwhelm the enemy healers.

if you misstep just once on smn you're dead

lol

[Slib]

if you misstep just once on smn you're dead, but if you play it well you're rewarded with the opportunity to maximize your damage potential. that's how glass cannons work. so it'd be prudent to take the overall job into account and not just the one flashy side.

That's how any class works in PvP. Everyone can die very fast... Honestly, I see tanks die the most because they run straight in head first and their cooldowns aren't enough to help them against 10+ people. I've been watching the leaderboards at the end of all my matches lately and I see a bunch of summoners up top with most kills, least deaths. Wonder why.

[DxWings]

Just to clarify. Bard and Machinists still have a damage penalty based on range even with WM/GB active. Their effective burst range is shorter than that of a summoner's, and typically is less safer since you have to extend out more. Bards also typically have a bit of windup since they need to prep DoTs for sidewinder, and machinists need to get a cleanshot ready

I know that it still exists but the 30% boost in dmg dealt makes it a moot point no matter where you're trying to empyreal arrow from. I've bursted from as far as I can and still took people down no problem. So overextending is not really even needed when you're just a harrassment class thats eyeballing for a burst kill.

And thats the same as a SMN when you're trying to setup a burst. If SMN Tridisasters someone, and they Fester, but sees that Tridisaster was purified before fester hit and fester ended up doing 0 dmg, they would be smart to stop there. Now they're left with having to set it up the long way. Or if they managed to Bane people, then they'll have to switch target fast enough to Fester-Painflare-Deathflare them.
Setting up a burst goes for every class, people are just butthurt that SMNs can easily set it up with no effort.

This can easily be applied to any burst, ever. And we're talking about using an LB to counter something that's effectively on a 1 minute cooldown (unless you're saving someone with BH, which is totally justified)

Exactly! That goes for every burst there is, SMN is no exception. And you're not completely out of options that you have to rely on a LB. Second Wind, Purify, Recuperate, Wanderer's Paean, Cure I/II, adlos, succors, astro shields, stoneskin. You have sooo many options to counter a SMN's burst, or any burst in general. People just aren't willing to accept the fact that its a 1min "easy bake" combo.

[QCrimson]

Yeeeeah, not really. When you get TD>fester>pain flare>energy drain>death flare a recouperate aint exactly gonna cut it. Sooo many options

[DxWings]

Yeeeeah, not really. When you get TD>fester>pain flare>energy drain>death flare a recouperate aint exactly gonna cut it. Sooo many options

xD you really just like to QQ don't you?
Tridisaster (animation going out) then DoTs get applied and might I add that they're slow to apply? So, see the animation, Purify when you see the DoTs. Fester will do 0 damage.
Painflare does about 2k-3k dmg, Recouperate heals me about 3.xk health (9.x health x 30%).
Deathflare does about 4-5k, since I'm already back to 8k-ish, I'm not dead from deathflare and thats the end of their combo. Easy peasy

[QCrimson]

Tridisaster (animation going out) then DoTs get applied and might I add that they're slow to apply? So, see the animation, Purify when you see the DoTs. Fester will do 0 damage.

I've already discussed this (how many times have I purified the dots to see the fester hit me for full dmg right after ? Latency, boys) but ok, sure. Then I get swiftcast > tri-bind (after my fetter ward obviously, which they can remove) and we're back to square one. What amuses me is that in all you people well-thought-out battle scenarios the SMN only has 3 aetherflow charges, when they can easily have 6. But enough with that. Next time I'm sure you'll tell me that bloodbath is a great counter to the SMN burst

Btw, you're missing the point if you think that all the QQ comes from 1o1 situations. I wouldn't like to go face to face with a smn but still, in a fair fight DRGs have the tools to be more than a threat. But we're not talking duels here, they pretty much never happen. We're talking frontlines and seize more specifically. A place where jumping on a SMN means landing in the midst of your enemies. That's why they're so powerful, evaluating its perfomances in a vacuum is not a good way to go about it. And for the last time I don't care that much about SMN's current unbalance. I'll just play it when I feel like going god-mode, exactly like I switched to caster, blm or smn, when I didn't feel like dying in 72 man slaughter.

[RiceisNice]

Exactly! That goes for every burst there is, SMN is no exception. And you're not completely out of options that you have to rely on a LB. Second Wind, Purify, Recuperate, Wanderer's Paean, Cure I/II, adlos, succors, astro shields, stoneskin. You have sooo many options to counter a SMN's burst, or any burst in general. People just aren't willing to accept the fact that its a 1min "easy bake" combo.

Its more on the fact how incredibly safe and reliable it is for SMN's burst compared to other classes, especially when it comes to bursting down a specific player.

Having it be shut down by LB/Heals isn't exclusive to just SMN burst, so I wouldn't really consider it to be a valid rebuttal. I mean honestly when you break it down, it's like you say, SMN's burst is a heck lot more reliable and accessible than what's available atm (second only to melee LB which I consider a true one shot in most circumstances)

The ranged penalty is applied after all is said and then. If I'm too close or attacking at max range, what could've been a 2.5k noncrit BtE is now doing less than quad digits, and that's far from being my only ability. If you wanted to burst something down as MCH or BRd, you pretty much have to sweet spot that range and it's a bit shorter than what SMN can reach since they have no range penalty. It's utterly infuriating when I get sniped by summoners when we're trying to run to the middle or cave spawns because of that goddamned center node that's uphill.

[Buff_Archer]

A lot of those Summoners you see getting a good kill/death spread, aren't simply brand new PVP players being suddenly enabled to gank pro's left and right. Many of us had experience PVP'ing with that class in Secure as the only available mode at the time for half a year, which is where I mained Summoner with Scholar as my secondary (as a straight up healer, and/or saboteur/distractor). With Slaughter mode having mechanics that were less Summoner friendly (especially considering the array of options available at lvl 50) Summoner was at a disadvantage, and many of us had to shift to BLM to stay competitive. Which was fun but which I personally didn't have optimized as much as SMN based on experience level so me as BLM in Slaughter was > me as SMN in Slaughter and yet it was < me as SMN in Secure prior to that.

Back when we had Secure mode only and it was more about capturing and holding flags, vs kill shots- I had matches where the damage I put out at flag conflicts ended up being over twice what any other DPS had on the scoreboard across all 72 combatants, and working with a party I'd get health low across the crowd, my teammates with skills that proc'd off low HP took care of kill shots, and so that wouldn't be reflected as kills for me on the scoreboard but that was fine, I knew the part I played and our teams won which was our goal.

Slaughter mode meant if we were able to get kill chains up enough to get battle high/fever as summoner we could use cometor the same as BLM, but getting to that point without others getting the kills first was more difficult. No fire3 instants for us. BLM had a major advantage over SMN, and most SMN's who could swapped to BLM though in many cases they didn't quite play BLM as well as they had played SMN before in Secure, and this includes me as well, I had a bit of a learning curve when it came to PVP BLM.

Seize mode has Summoners being viable again and so you're seeing a return of experienced PVP'ers returning to the class they were familiar with, and that's why you're seeing Summoners stand out again vs. in Slaughter where they were marginalized. So if you see a scoreboard where Kisada got 19 kills, that's because he's good at his role as you'd expect someone experienced with that job and with PVP from before to be. My best as SMN was 13/1, but I also had good healers supporting me in my group, and I've had several hundred games to learn PVP. And Kisada is just a level above me right now, and that's why he gets more kills on SMN than I do, skill and experience discrepancy since we're both on the same class and can't blame that for being the difference. If we'd mained a different class all through since FL Secure came out, we'd probably be getting these numbers on those classes instead and people wouldn't question it. I've seen matches where people in a variety of roles- DRG, NIN- are getting a high number of kills, but since it's just the one of them in the match people don't say- oh no it's DRG that's OP nerf that! They think what a good player. But it's no different here, getting ganked by a DRG or NIN or SMN, the technique is different but the speed is much the same.

Difference now is the people skilling in melee and other roles are still playing those roles, and doing about the same; Summoner is seeing a return of skilled players to that role and now you see them doing well for the first time in awhile, because those of us capable of doing well at SMN are playing it again.

[Liselsia]

That's how any class works in PvP. Everyone can die very fast... Honestly, I see tanks die the most because they run straight in head first and their cooldowns aren't enough to help them against 10+ people. I've been watching the leaderboards at the end of all my matches lately and I see a bunch of summoners up top with most kills, least deaths. Wonder why.

Yeah basically this. I see a lot of people suggesting that Summoner is by far the most fragile job in the game. Its pretty much all hyperbole. Bard or Blackmage goes down just as quickly. It not a summoner problem, everyone dies quickly in pvp.

@Buff_Archer: Your not wrong but at same time its a bit disingenuous. You have skilled pvpers playing most jobs. I see DRG, NIN, BRD, WAR, ect all going 25-0 regularly in pvp. The thing is the top 15 dps are all Summoner typically. Sure the top 1 or 2 SUmmoner who pulling 300k+ DPS are pvp vets but majority arent yet consistently pulling 200k dps.

@Power Users: I think you guys need to chill a bit. Stalking this thread, angrily rebutting every critique made at summoner. Sharing your perspective is important but by no-lifing this thread all you end up doing is making yourself look defensive. Just let people express their opinions. Because at the end up the day thats all it is, subjective opinion. All equally is irrelevant, so dont get bothered so much.