Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[Bishop81]

/sigh

Couple of points,

• Need non-"punish the whole group for the failings of a few" group content. Punish just the failing individual.
• Customizable Classes can then do such aforementioned content - in addition to existing solo content and easy group content like FATEs and Hunts - since tight balance won't be an issue,
  • no one being underpowered is going to affect anyone else's success hence will not get "sat".
  • no one being overpowered is going to steal anyone's raid spot.
• Bar customizable Classes from traditional raids so masochistic WoW-style raiding is unaffected and such players can continue to be as exclusionary and toxic toward each other as they want.

That is all.

PS: 15 posts a day really cramps having long discussions.

[zcrash970]

/snip
.

1) This is a mmo. A TEAM based game. One person failures should affect the entire party.
2) If a class is underpowered it will be "sat." Let's look at bards. The general opinion is their dps is underwheming and they are kicked from groups. AST, are kicked from endgame goups because their heals are weaker and do not have reliable utility. In 2.4-2.5, SMNs weren't wanted in endgame groups because they
weren't as good as BLMs.
3) If something is OP, then it will certainly replace the class with the same role. That's why a lot people want DRGs for a melee spot. BL is a giant dps buff with a pretty low CD.
4) Then why have something if it cannot partake in all content. It is pointless developing time. If jobs are better than the "customizable" class, no one will use them.

From reading your previous posts, it sounds like you haven't played many mmos. What you want have existed in mmos before and they always end the same way.

[CGMidlander]

[*]Need non-"punish the whole group for the failings of a few" group content. Punish just the failing individual.

That content will be very easy then.

The worst that could happen is the individual dies. If their death isn't inconsequential, then their failings affect the whole group. (i.e. How it is right now)
But if their death is inconsequential, then the fight is not challenging.

So...CT/ST/WoD

[Bishop81]

1) This is a mmo. A TEAM based game. One person failures should affect the entire party.

That has worked out great hasn't it. I'm sure the elitism, exclusionary behavior, and flaming is good for the community of the game.

2) If a class is underpowered it will be "sat." Let's look at bards. The general opinion is their dps is underwheming and they are kicked from groups. AST, are kicked from endgame goups because their heals are weaker and do not have reliable utility. In 2.4-2.5, SMNs weren't wanted in endgame groups because they
weren't as good as BLMs.
3) If something is OP, then it will certainly replace the class with the same role. That's why a lot people want DRGs for a melee spot. BL is a giant dps buff with a pretty low CD.
4) Then why have something if it cannot partake in all content. It is pointless developing time. If jobs are better than the "customizable" class, no one will use them.

From reading your previous posts, it sounds like you haven't played many mmos. What you want have existed in mmos before and they always end the same way.

And you can't seem to think outside the "WoW-style raiding" box. All your arguments assume "WoW-style raiding".

That content will be very easy then.

The worst that could happen is the individual dies. If their death isn't inconsequential, then their failings affect the whole group. (i.e. How it is right now)
But if their death is inconsequential, then the fight is not challenging.

So...CT/ST/WoD

Non sequitur.

Difficulty is independent of whether the entire group takes the fall for the failings of a few or it's just the individuals that fail that get punished - e.g. Bloodborne, a single player game, has no "group" at all and is in no way easy.

No the worst that could happen in any game is you not achieving your objective.

The current system makes it such that if a few players in the group are incompetent, everyone fails their objective.

It applies to CT/ST/WoD as well. If a few DPS fail to do mechanics, e.g. run to pad in CT final boss, everyone dies.

Having to deal with the failings of other people isn't "difficulty" or at least isn't the good kind. It only leads to frustration and inevitable toxic behavior when you lash out at others for "being bads".

Ideally group content should allow players to help one another achieve their objectives but not allow one another to "get in the way" of each other's objective, either intentionally or unintentionally.

[DreadRabbit]

Having to deal with the failings of other people isn't "difficulty" or at least isn't the good kind. It only leads to frustration and inevitable toxic behavior when you lash out at others for "being bads".

Ideally group content should allow players to help one another achieve their objectives but not allow one another to "get in the way" of each other's objective, either intentionally or unintentionally.

This is beginning to sound more like a personal problem with the game community than it does a problem with mechanics the game provides. And you think somehow changing this dynamic will suddenly change the community's behavior.


This is literally every MMO in existence. It doesn't matter what system you implement and it's not limited to raiding culture: there's wonderful people who really don't care how you play so long as you're effective. Then you have jerks who think they have the right to dictate a stranger's playing style. Even in Mabinogi that didn't have classes (You could learn every skill in the game save race specific ones. You strengthened skills by using them x# of times until you ranked it up. In that game being a hybrid from different skill types was considered best rather than trying to be a "class"), you still had elitist jerks that would tell people "have [skill name] at rank # or get out." And that was one of the few games that had zero raiding. Yeah...even a game without an actual raiding end-game has this behavior. You can't escape it.

There's a lot of people in this game that do what you're talking about with the system we already have in place. There's just as many people who are jerks for the sake of being jerks. You're going to run into all kinds of personalities playing with other people. The only way to get what you're talking about is if they implement a dungeon system in which you can take a party of NPCs (aka turn it into a console FF game for the dungeons) so that those who don't want to play with others don't have to. Or, you party strictly with friends only. That is the only way you're going to be able to completely gate yourself from this behavior.

[CGMidlander]

Difficulty is independent of whether the entire group takes the fall for the failings of a few or it's just the individuals that fail that get punished - e.g. Bloodborne, a single player game, has no "group" at all and is in no way easy.

Except FFXIV is an MMORPG; not a single player game. The kinds of mechanics and balancing that goes into single player games is totally different, because the world centers around one player.

Ideally group content should allow players to help one another achieve their objectives but not allow one another to "get in the way" of each other's objective, either intentionally or unintentionally.

How exactly do you propose SE goes about doing that?

If a player has the ability to positively impact the group's activity by doing something (e.g. finishing a task faster), then they have the ability to negatively impact it by not doing it. (e.g. causing a task to take longer than it could have taken)

The only way for a player to not get in the way of something is if they have no power or involvement at all. (i.e. They are only a spectator)

[Bishop81]

This is beginning to sound more like a personal problem with the game community than it does a problem with mechanics the game provides. And you think somehow changing this dynamic will suddenly change the community's behavior.

...

Nope, it will not solve world hunger either.

But it will give people one less reason to hate each other.

I'm not trying to fix every social problem in the game. I'm just trying to decrease one.

Just because it doesn't fix everything, doesn't mean it isn't worth implementing.

Except FFXIV is an MMORPG; not a single player game. The kinds of mechanics and balancing that goes into single player games is totally different, because the world centers around one player.

So you are suddenly the definitive authority on what MMORPGs must be?

How exactly do you propose SE goes about doing that?

If a player has the ability to positively impact the group's activity by doing something (e.g. finishing a task faster), then they have the ability to negatively impact it by not doing it. (e.g. causing a task to take longer than it could have taken)

The only way for a player to not get in the way of something is if they have no power or involvement at all. (i.e. They are only a spectator)

Yes, I have considered that.

The crux of the matter is "obligation". Can I give away all the money in my wallet to some dude on the street and make his day better? Sure. But no one will fault me if I don't.

Current MMO group content involves a lot of "obligation", you must do this, you must do that, ...

Imagine group content where you don't have to do anything you don't want to - the only one who will suffer the negative consequences will be you; if you choose to. It will be nice if you did but no skin off anyone else's back if you don't.

[Hix]

Imagine group content where you don't have to do anything you don't want to. It will be nice if you did but no skin off anyone else's back if you don't.

People on this thread have repeatedly told you what that "content" would look like. Faceroll easy to the point where it doesn't matter what you do because it has no practical effect on the outcome of what is going on. If you think that there exists a way to make group content where the presence of your group mates is completely irrelevant, while still being fun and having any kind of challenge, then you need to step up and provide some examples.