PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Giantbane]

Congrats, you lose the worst stat on the class where it scales the worst anyways. My point was the bonus from wrath which people, for some reason that eludes me, seem to envy us for. lol

definitely not clear and the benefit from wrath parry is less than the benefit from normal parry to the PLD.

blah blah blah foresight

Reread it, foresight is mentioned for completeness. It's also better for the WAR so it represents a bigger loss to the WAR, but you'd actually have to stop raging nonsensically to get that.

Shield is a big deal, mostly because it helps smooth out damage and it's always active that you don't even have to think about. Bulwark turns it into something mostly reliable (depending on your initial block rate), and sheltron while iffy due to it's implementation just adds to it.

I also forgot RoH, so there's that. Which, sure, an OT PLD can bring, but if you've got an OT using RoH that's not terribly optimal in terms of raid damage.

I don't see how you can honestly think the WAR loses as much as the PLD when we're talking losing abilities vs. pure physical damage.

Do you play WAR? Because I think if you do, you wouldn't bring up Storm Path all the time.

etc, etc, etc

Stop arguing that in vacuum one tank is better than everyone else. It's stupid.

Inner Beast is enough to put the WAR on par with the PLD against magic, all the rest is extra. Better if we're talking about frequent damage. SP on the WAR just means you can do it on your own and if tanks have to split (A1) or the OT isn't there (A4) then the WAR still gets it. Bringing up the INT down via some other class (DRK/MNK) is sort of pointless because that stacks with SP so it's not an either or situation.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

I wasn't raging at all. My point is WAR loses as much as PLD in a magical fight. Even if WAR is slightly ahead in mitigation, and it isn't, I provided numbers, and WAR is still behind in effective healing, which is as important.

My point with parry is that DRK and WAR scale completely from parry (even if the scaling is poop). PLD's parry is reduced by whatever block rate they have. Look at the following example:

Let's assume at 750 parry (random number) you get 20% parry chance and assume PLD's shield has a 20% block chance;
WAR has a base of 20% parry chance, and from 22% to 30% based on Wrath. The stat is useless while Raw Intuition is up for 100% parry.
PLD will have a 16% parry chance. Since block precedes parry checks. During Bulwark total 80% block chance, parry chance is down to 4%.

So PLD losing parry isn't the same as WAR/DRK losing parry and is far less impactful.

Foresight is an overlooked CD anyways. WAR wouldn't use it even in physical fights outside of "it's up so I used it". PLDs couple it with Bulwark to increase average mitigation of Bulwark + Foresight.

Inner Beast is pure Awesome. It is the single best mitigation skill in the game. But I didn't argue that. Storm Path is great, and I didn't deny that.

You keep bringing up sub-optimal situationalities as evidence when it isn't. In a fight like A1/As1, you can keep the monk with the PLD that needs the INT down and have the WAR keep SP, there, both tanks have 10% less magical damage received. Any other setup doesn't matter. You also seem to ignore the whole thing about SP isn't optimal to be kept 100% of the time. There, I gave you a more optimized situation.

You are over-glorifying SP when in application it's not that vital or optimal to be up 100% of the time. No good WAR keeps SP up 100% of the time and that's my whole point. I would agree with you if SP had the same potency as SE or BB and SP and SE both lasted 30 seconds. That way WAR's rotation would be to apply SP, SE, then BB. Oh but even then, due to the existence of Fracture and IB/FC, they will drop. So it wouldn't be optimal/possible to keep both up.

Again, you are leaving too many important factors out. WAR is NOT at any advantage over PLD in a magical fight outside of MT DPS.

[Giantbane]

I wasn't raging at all.

all caps, bold, underlined about an ability that was mentioned both for the WAR and the PLD? I don't have any other way to describe that.

My point is WAR loses as much as PLD in a magical fight.

that's the part I disagreed with

Even if WAR is slightly ahead in mitigation, and it isn't, I provided numbers, and WAR is still behind in effective healing, which is as important.

The 4% base healing efficiency isn't as big a deal because of overhealing.

Defiance not boosting healing efficiency is a significant disadvantage. But WAR's mitigation advantage (IB every 20s + ToB every 2min + Vengeance every 2min vs. Rampart every 90s, Sentinel every 3min and HG every ... I forget 5 or 6 min?) pretty much erases that completely and then some.

You keep bringing up sub-optimal situationalities as evidence when it isn't. In a fight like A1/As1, you can keep the monk with the PLD that needs the INT down and have the WAR keep SP, there, both tanks have 10% less magical damage received. Any other setup doesn't matter.

As opposed to WAR/DRK where you could stick the MNK with the WAR? Or drop the MNK for DRG/BRD? WAR being the one with SP means flexibility and doesn't make you reliant on other classes in a way that PLD is in your scenario.

A1 & A4 aren't just "situationalities", they're actual current raiding scenarios where a PLD MT can't just depend on a WAR OT providing SP for him. Which is why you can't just assume the PLD always has access to the relevant debuffs.

You also seem to ignore the whole thing about SP isn't optimal to be kept 100% of the time. There, I gave you a more optimized situation.

You are over-glorifying SP when in application it's not that vital or optimal to be up 100% of the time.

INT down is this amazing debuff that made MNK so desirable for FCoB fights that had magic damage. SP is stronger.

You're also not really losing as much potency going from SE > BB to SE > SP as you think. It's only 40 potency at most every 6 GCD. It's actually less than that with Fracture and IB or FC usage. When you throw in brutal swing and auto attacks, it works out to something like 2%? of your total DPS. So if you're MT pulling out 700 dps, then you lose something like 14 dps whenever you want to have -10% raid damage (all types) up all the time? It's a definite advantage for the WAR in magic fights.

[Phoenicia]

Stuff...

Defiance not boosting healing efficiency is a significant disadvantage. But WAR's mitigation advantage (IB every 20s + ToB every 2min + Vengeance every 2min vs. Rampart every 90s, Sentinel every 3min and HG every ... I forget 5 or 6 min?) pretty much erases that completely and then some.

..other stuff.

Based on the frequency of CD usage, isn't WAR ahead of PLD in physical fights as well then? RI is half the CD of Bulwark and is 100% instead of just 60%. WAR can still parry with IB up and PLD can't parry with Sheltron (assuming PLD and WAR couple Sheltron/IB with another CD). And Sheltron is not as reliable as it should be (kinda sucks, I wish it had more reliability).

Edit: Also throwing all CDs at physical attacks: WAR can stack up to an impressive reliable 267% eHP while PLD is somewhere between 260~272% based on shield type and "successful" blocks. Let's not forget WAR can throw "everything" every 2 minutes while PLD can't until the 3 minute mark.

Sadly though, mitigation isn't looked at at how often you can use the CDs on fluff since CDs are only used for busters.

This gives us a new fact here: The more frequent tank busters are, the more the WAR will mitigate over the other two tanks.

Point is: As long as Tank busters are on a ~1 min or longer timer, PLD will mitigate more physical damage than WAR but roughly the same in magical fights, DRK will mitigate more magical damage than WAR but far behind both WAR and PLD in physical fights.

PLD is still by far the tank with the most utility options. DRK is the tank that got the short stick really.

I don't want to argue any more though. Let's assume you are right and WAR mitigates more magical damage, and I honestly do not think you are. WAR being a versatile tank is the least it can get for being the tank that doesn't "shine" in either situation to keep a reasonable balance. Specially when most statics are forcing their PLDs and DRKs to level DRK and PLD respectively because they want the most optimal MT (and WAR isn't in neither situation).

[Giantbane]

Let's assume you are right and WAR mitigates more magical damage, and I honestly do not think you are. WAR being a versatile tank is the least it can get for being the tank that doesn't "shine" in either situation to keep a reasonable balance. Specially when most statics are forcing their PLDs and DRKs to level DRK and PLD respectively because they want the most optimal MT (and WAR isn't in neither situation).

Alright, but I just want to be clear on where I'm coming from. I don't think WAR is too good or needs to be nerfed. It's mostly in a good place. The only complaints I'd have about it are healing abilities not working in Defiance (which is silly) and Holmgang is trying to do too much for one ability and should be split up into 2 abilities (invulnerability and the lock in place).

I do think the PLD & DRK could use some buffs. Nothing major like WAR 2.0 > 2.1, but they could use a little more help in a few areas.

The only possible nerf all tanks might face is if they're encroaching too closely on the DPS of actual DPS classes. But that's a completely separate issue.