PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Faytte]

Shelltron :X yeahhhhh good and bad at same time

Basically, its fantastic but nothing actually capitilizes on it. Rav Ex; you could time it with every blinding blade. Amazing!
Since then? Um...Auto attacks? Not really that impressive. In fact, cause of it I imagine kite shields are really a better choice over tower shields for total mitigation.

I actually kind of hate the route they went with physical and magic damage in Heavensward. It feels that, fight to fight, either Dark or Paladin will be (mitigation wise) loads better, while Warrior casually shrugs and tanks both 'good enough'.

[Phoenicia]

Basically, its fantastic but nothing actually capitilizes on it. Rav Ex; you could time it with every blinding blade. Amazing!
Since then? Um...Auto attacks? Not really that impressive. In fact, cause of it I imagine kite shields are really a better choice over tower shields for total mitigation.

I actually kind of hate the route they went with physical and magic damage in Heavensward. It feels that, fight to fight, either Dark or Paladin will be (mitigation wise) loads better, while Warrior casually shrugs and tanks both 'good enough'.

In a magical damage fight, WAR has every disadvantage the PLD has minus the DPS. WAR loses on parry and Raw Intuition (can still use it for wrath/abandon I guess?) just like how PLD loses shield and Bulwark/Sheltron.

My point is WAR isn't far ahead (if at all) of PLD in non-physical fights. Effective HP wise WAR can pull 7% more EHP than PLD but is still 4~10% Effective healing behind due to discrepancy in the healing bonus from Defiance and it not affecting healing abilities. A MT WAR "can" mitigate more than PLD in both physical and magical environments but it will ALWAYS be easier and safer to heal a PLD MT.

DRK is the odd one in that it mitigates magical damage a lot better than the other tanks (very short but effective CD against magical damage) but at the same time is the worst physical tank because it lacks to tools to handle it outside of 2 major relatively long CDs.

Do not get me wrong, PLD needs a buff on its basic enmity combo multiplier to be in line with the other tanks. It is sad that PLD FINALLY got an actual rotation, but still end up only spamming 1, 2, 3 to barely keep enmity.

[Giantbane]

In a magical damage fight, WAR has every disadvantage the PLD has minus the DPS. WAR loses on parry and Raw Intuition (can still use it for wrath/abandon I guess?) just like how PLD loses shield and Bulwark/Sheltron.

Come on now, PLD loses parry too. It's really Raw Intuition and 90s Foresight vs. 120s Foresight and Shield/Bulwark/Sheltron. It's a bigger loss on the PLD.

My point is WAR isn't far ahead (if at all) of PLD in non-physical fights.

I think you're seriously underestimating the usefulness of being able to have SP up 100% of the time and Inner Beast ready every 20s (less actually).

[Phoenicia]

Come on now, PLD loses parry too. It's really Raw Intuition and 90s Foresight vs. 120s Foresight and Shield/Bulwark/Sheltron. It's a bigger loss on the PLD.

Congrats, you lose the worst stat on the class where it scales the worst anyways. My point was the bonus from wrath which people, for some reason that eludes me, seem to envy us for. lol

Are you seriously trying so hard to exaggerate the physical mitigation issue? Foresight? youserious? I mean REALLY? Foresight? Arguably the WORST CD IN THE GAME.

lolBulwark has always been considered a shitty CD for tank busters anyways. It's not guaranteed. Sheltron + Bulwark are what make shield block equivalent to Raw Intuition. Reliability and reuse are very important! Raw Intuition is guaranteed 20s of 20% physical reduction. EDIT: Let's not forget it's 90s CD vs 180s.

Sheltron can be popped by the auto attack right before your buster even if you time it well. Bulwark is only 60% boost, with a tower shield it's poop, with a kite shield you still have a 20% chance of it not working. Bulwark at its best is 15s of 10~20% average physical damage reduction, making Bulwark an over-glorified Foresight. Most PLDs couple Bulwark with Foresight anyways lol. Coupling two meh CDs to make a good one. EDIT: WAR loses a better CD in Raw Intuition than PLD in Bulwark and Sheltron.

I think you're seriously underestimating the usefulness of being able to have SP up 100% of the time and Inner Beast ready every 20s (less actually).

Do you play WAR? Because I think if you do, you wouldn't bring up Storm Path all the time.

1- If you have a WAR and ANY other tank, ALL TANKS benefit from Storm Path.
2- ANY WAR worth their salt will not put up SP 100% of the time. SPECIALLY as MT. Putting SP 100% means you either can't do SE (Your combo is SP > BB) to keep sub-optimal enmity, or you lose 50 potency each time you apply SP compared to BB, and lose massive enmity.

So based on point 2, WAR's enmity and DPS plummet if they keep SP up 100%. Since everyone here is crying about WAR DPS being high, that won't be relative anymore.

Oh, and as if there is any situation in this game where a WAR will pop IB every 20s or less because they need to. WARs spend most of their time in Deliverance for FC. Again, every IB used is 1 less FC used, lowering WAR's DPS, which is the whole reason for this forum outrage. Even when main tanking, WAR will slip into Deliverance during fluff damage and go back to Defiance to IB busters.

Let's stop talking about things in vacuum and talk about practical uses.

Comparing mitigation options in a magical fight:

WAR combines either ToB+IB for 150% eHP, or Veng+IB for 178%, or all three for 214% max eHP. In all cases, WAR is behind 4~15% effective healing (specially when ToB is used). WAR can, but has no reason to, incorporate Holmgang to save CDs on a buster. But it's very risky and stresses healers.
PLD uses Rampart for 125% eHP, Sentinel for 166.67%, or both for 207% max eHP. All cases PLD's effective healing received is increased by as much. PLD can effectively take 0 damage by incorporating HG into its CD rotation.

In a magical fight, WAR has his own SP, yes. PLD will receive SP or INT Down or both from the OT and/or MNK. So WAR bringing its own SP is irrelevant. Remember, this is a team game.

No matter how you spin it, WAR is not in a "clear" advantage over PLD.

Stop arguing that in vacuum one tank is better than everyone else, specially when disregarding party set ups. It's stupid.

[Giantbane]

Congrats, you lose the worst stat on the class where it scales the worst anyways. My point was the bonus from wrath which people, for some reason that eludes me, seem to envy us for. lol

definitely not clear and the benefit from wrath parry is less than the benefit from normal parry to the PLD.

blah blah blah foresight

Reread it, foresight is mentioned for completeness. It's also better for the WAR so it represents a bigger loss to the WAR, but you'd actually have to stop raging nonsensically to get that.

Shield is a big deal, mostly because it helps smooth out damage and it's always active that you don't even have to think about. Bulwark turns it into something mostly reliable (depending on your initial block rate), and sheltron while iffy due to it's implementation just adds to it.

I also forgot RoH, so there's that. Which, sure, an OT PLD can bring, but if you've got an OT using RoH that's not terribly optimal in terms of raid damage.

I don't see how you can honestly think the WAR loses as much as the PLD when we're talking losing abilities vs. pure physical damage.

Do you play WAR? Because I think if you do, you wouldn't bring up Storm Path all the time.

etc, etc, etc

Stop arguing that in vacuum one tank is better than everyone else. It's stupid.

Inner Beast is enough to put the WAR on par with the PLD against magic, all the rest is extra. Better if we're talking about frequent damage. SP on the WAR just means you can do it on your own and if tanks have to split (A1) or the OT isn't there (A4) then the WAR still gets it. Bringing up the INT down via some other class (DRK/MNK) is sort of pointless because that stacks with SP so it's not an either or situation.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

I wasn't raging at all. My point is WAR loses as much as PLD in a magical fight. Even if WAR is slightly ahead in mitigation, and it isn't, I provided numbers, and WAR is still behind in effective healing, which is as important.

My point with parry is that DRK and WAR scale completely from parry (even if the scaling is poop). PLD's parry is reduced by whatever block rate they have. Look at the following example:

Let's assume at 750 parry (random number) you get 20% parry chance and assume PLD's shield has a 20% block chance;
WAR has a base of 20% parry chance, and from 22% to 30% based on Wrath. The stat is useless while Raw Intuition is up for 100% parry.
PLD will have a 16% parry chance. Since block precedes parry checks. During Bulwark total 80% block chance, parry chance is down to 4%.

So PLD losing parry isn't the same as WAR/DRK losing parry and is far less impactful.

Foresight is an overlooked CD anyways. WAR wouldn't use it even in physical fights outside of "it's up so I used it". PLDs couple it with Bulwark to increase average mitigation of Bulwark + Foresight.

Inner Beast is pure Awesome. It is the single best mitigation skill in the game. But I didn't argue that. Storm Path is great, and I didn't deny that.

You keep bringing up sub-optimal situationalities as evidence when it isn't. In a fight like A1/As1, you can keep the monk with the PLD that needs the INT down and have the WAR keep SP, there, both tanks have 10% less magical damage received. Any other setup doesn't matter. You also seem to ignore the whole thing about SP isn't optimal to be kept 100% of the time. There, I gave you a more optimized situation.

You are over-glorifying SP when in application it's not that vital or optimal to be up 100% of the time. No good WAR keeps SP up 100% of the time and that's my whole point. I would agree with you if SP had the same potency as SE or BB and SP and SE both lasted 30 seconds. That way WAR's rotation would be to apply SP, SE, then BB. Oh but even then, due to the existence of Fracture and IB/FC, they will drop. So it wouldn't be optimal/possible to keep both up.

Again, you are leaving too many important factors out. WAR is NOT at any advantage over PLD in a magical fight outside of MT DPS.

[Giantbane]

I wasn't raging at all.

all caps, bold, underlined about an ability that was mentioned both for the WAR and the PLD? I don't have any other way to describe that.

My point is WAR loses as much as PLD in a magical fight.

that's the part I disagreed with

Even if WAR is slightly ahead in mitigation, and it isn't, I provided numbers, and WAR is still behind in effective healing, which is as important.

The 4% base healing efficiency isn't as big a deal because of overhealing.

Defiance not boosting healing efficiency is a significant disadvantage. But WAR's mitigation advantage (IB every 20s + ToB every 2min + Vengeance every 2min vs. Rampart every 90s, Sentinel every 3min and HG every ... I forget 5 or 6 min?) pretty much erases that completely and then some.

You keep bringing up sub-optimal situationalities as evidence when it isn't. In a fight like A1/As1, you can keep the monk with the PLD that needs the INT down and have the WAR keep SP, there, both tanks have 10% less magical damage received. Any other setup doesn't matter.

As opposed to WAR/DRK where you could stick the MNK with the WAR? Or drop the MNK for DRG/BRD? WAR being the one with SP means flexibility and doesn't make you reliant on other classes in a way that PLD is in your scenario.

A1 & A4 aren't just "situationalities", they're actual current raiding scenarios where a PLD MT can't just depend on a WAR OT providing SP for him. Which is why you can't just assume the PLD always has access to the relevant debuffs.

You also seem to ignore the whole thing about SP isn't optimal to be kept 100% of the time. There, I gave you a more optimized situation.

You are over-glorifying SP when in application it's not that vital or optimal to be up 100% of the time.

INT down is this amazing debuff that made MNK so desirable for FCoB fights that had magic damage. SP is stronger.

You're also not really losing as much potency going from SE > BB to SE > SP as you think. It's only 40 potency at most every 6 GCD. It's actually less than that with Fracture and IB or FC usage. When you throw in brutal swing and auto attacks, it works out to something like 2%? of your total DPS. So if you're MT pulling out 700 dps, then you lose something like 14 dps whenever you want to have -10% raid damage (all types) up all the time? It's a definite advantage for the WAR in magic fights.

[Adrasteia]

Are you seriously trying so hard to exaggerate the physical mitigation issue? Foresight? youserious? I mean REALLY? Foresight? Arguably the WORST CD IN THE GAME.

It's actually really good for its niche (physical damage). At ilvl190 left-side, it susses out so something like 14.1% physical damage reduction, and keeps going up as ilvl increases.