NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

[Sigmakan]

AoE is important but it isn't what really matters in raid. Instead more emphasis has to be placed on single target dps and raid utility.

In which case NIN is fine. They are behind DRG, but ahead of MNK.

[Uppers]

In which case NIN is fine. They are behind DRG, but ahead of MNK.

Until I see MNKs post proof that they are in fact behind NIN I refuse to believe just based on one statement that MNKs are behind NINs in single target. Give me many faust parses by combatant and then I will start believing you.

[Sigmakan]

I broke down the math for you a few posts above. They are 3-4% behind MNK in individual DPS, but get about a 6-7% DPS increase when taking into account the additional raid damage that TA provides. Can probably be more than 7% if the raid is coordinated.

[Uppers]

I broke down the math for you a few posts above. They are 3-4% behind MNK in individual DPS, but get about a 6-7% DPS increase when taking into account the additional raid damage that TA provides. Can probably be more than 7% if the raid is coordinated.

Your math is giving me overall raid additional dps, not single target dps. So if we are talking about equivalences then you have to look at just the single target damage. Also, with your argument about raid damage addition I can also just say that having another MNK will boost overall raid damage since one can apply dragon kick while the other just does bootshines all day.

[Sigmakan]

Not sure what your first sentence means at all.

If you're talking about comparing NIN vs. MNK head to head, outside a raid environment then yeah, MNK wins. But that's a pretty shortsighted view on a job.

In regards to two monks, its more complex than that. If you roll with two monks, you are displacing another job for that additional monk. That likely would be DRG, so you'd have to factor in the DPS loss (including losing +10% piercing) associated with that swap as well. Its not clean math, so I wont try to attempt it since it'll probably be inaccurate anyway.

[Yunshaa7]

Interesting tidbit: both Elysium and Lucrezia have been taking a DRG-NIN melee DPS combination for Alexander Savage. There were no MNKs in either's A3S clear, but there were NINs.

The fact of the matter is that DRG and NIN bring more unique utility to a progression static than MNK does. A NIN is irreplaceable in the same manner that a WAR is: Trick Attack and Storm's Path are simply too good to not take. DRGs are taken mainly for Battle Litany. Raiding right now is all about pushing phases with DPS. MNK's Int Debuff utility is now shared with DRK which parses higher damage numbers than PLD, so raid teams take WAR-DRK. The MNK is then redundant, so DRG-NIN becomes optimal for the aforementioned skills. Then it's just a matter of whether to take BRD-BLM or MCH-SMN.

NINs may or may not be behind MNKs in terms of overall DPS output as an individual, but Trick Attack alone is worth taking a NIN over a MNK for phases where you need as much damage as you can get.

[Sigmakan]

Your analysis is spot on, and likely the same conclusion that those teams came to as well.

Out of curiosity, why the BLM/BRD and SMN/MCH pairing?

[Yunshaa7]

My understanding is that a Battle Voiced Foe's Requiem benefits BLMs more than SMNs (I have this on hearsay from folks who I assume know better than I do), and is generally stronger than a MCH's Magical Vulnerability Up even without Battle Voice, which is why you take BRD over MCH to boost your magical damage output. In this scenario, both the DRK and BLM benefit from having the BRD in the party.

Conversely, MCHs can apply Physical Vulnerability Up via a Hypercharged Rook Turret, which benefits the WAR, the DRG, and the NIN. That debuff is something that BRDs cannot supply.

[trailmix9999]

Elysium had a mnk for 1 and 2 also the only reason they brought drk to replace mnk is because the single tank dmg isnt crazy. We'll have to see what comp is used for 4, im assuming pld may be necessary and then maybe mnk will see a return. I will agree that nin and drg make a good comp but i also feel its a little too good, mnk unfairly brings nothing while both nin and drg have killer buffs and they buff the raid, its a little too OP tbh.

[Craiger]

Your math is giving me overall raid additional dps, not single target dps. So if we are talking about equivalences then you have to look at just the single target damage. Also, with your argument about raid damage addition I can also just say that having another MNK will boost overall raid damage since one can apply dragon kick while the other just does bootshines all day.

You are making zero sense you know...

A group with players that have some brains at all, know that it doesn't matter what one single DPS player have in DPS... the only thing that matters is the groups overall DPS.

Lets say your trying to beat Faust (easy example), you need something around 6000 group DPS (ST only) to beat him before enrage. You have one player that plays both NIN and MNK at the same ilvl... When he plays on his MNK, he has higher DPS on the parse than the NIN does, but they can't get enough DPS to beat him. They try having him as NIN, and while he does slightly less DPS on the parse, they beat him.

The difference in that scenario is Trick Attack. Would you consider MNK to be better in that scenario because he has higher DPS? or are you finally beginning to see that the NIN would give you higher DPS in the end? Yes, single target DPS

Also, having 2 MNKs in the group to skip DK for one of them?? Seriously how is that the same thing? NINs already do this with their slashing debuff too...

AoE is important but it isn't what really matters in raid. Instead more emphasis has to be placed on single target dps and raid utility.

This isn't entirely true. Sure, pure AoE abilities that you don't want to use on a single target, isn't always the best for raids... but if you have oGCD AoE abilities like MNK, it's really good at times. A2 is the obvious place it's good, but it can be good for many other situations too with 2 or more enemies standing next to each other.

To the point of who has the best AoE, DRG has the highest for a pure DPS fight that doesn't last very long (like a dungeon), but in a fight like A2, MNKs are kings... just saying. AoE isn't all bad in raids