NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

[MrCookTM]

The funny thing is, from what I keep reading, NIN is behind in Heavensward content. If you go back and do, say, Final Coil, you'll see NIN still hitting higher.

This is what you read from NIN's. What is funny as hell is that once you read the MNK thread, there are a lot of posts stating how they are similar in ST dps, but lack the utility NIN has and thus need a buff.

The point is that outside of progressing savage, the difference (if there's any) is so small, it doesn't matter. Even If someone is doing savage progression, a player must play his job to it's absolute highest potential, otherwise the better player will just do better dps, no matter if NIN or MNK.

[Uppers]

a player must play his job to it's absolute highest potential, otherwise the better player will just do better dps, no matter if NIN or MNK.

Well bringing in the idea of skill to who will do the better dps is not relevant because it is a qualitative measurement and doesn't add anything substantial to the argument. What needs to be looked at are many different parses to actually see an average dps or median for each class. Right now it seems that DRG > MNK > NIN in terms of overall dps. But the problem is how much of a dps difference there is between the classes. It seems that DRG is between 100-200 dps higher than NIN which is pretty significant. The difference between MNK and NIN is not really known too well because DRG outshines them both too heavily so the difference is probably not that much between MNK and NIN. Essentially, MNK and NIN both need to be looked at but since NIN is the LOWEST of the 3 then NIN needs more of a look than MNK.

[MrCookTM]

Even though in my book NIN and MNK are still pretty even, I agree that skill should not be taken into consideration and I also agree that DRG shits all over the other melees in almost every aspect. What I wanted to point out though is more the fact that the difference between NIN and MNK isn't big enough (if there's any) to justify the sheer amount of complaints we see from both sides. If anything, I think it's justified to just ask: why not bring double DRG to every raid and not care about the other two? I think in order for SE to do buff anything about NIN or MNK, something like this needs to happen first.

[Uppers]

Even though in my book NIN and MNK are still pretty even, I agree that skill should not be taken into consideration and I also agree that DRG shits all over the other melees in almost every aspect. What I wanted to point out though is more the fact that the difference between NIN and MNK isn't big enough (if there's any) to justify the sheer amount of complaints we see from both sides. If anything, I think it's justified to just ask: why not bring double DRG to every raid and not care about the other two? I think in order for SE to do buff anything about NIN or MNK, something like this needs to happen first.

Yeah, you can bring double DRG but their abilities don't really complement each other really well since disembowel is on the same combo as chaos thrust, etc. But its probably still viable since their innate damage is higher than the other classes and double battle litany sounds really strong.

[Sigmakan]

From what I've experienced so far, NIN is about 3-4% behind MNK in DPS. However, TA more than makes up for that. Math below:
TA is up for 10 of every 60 seconds, and provides a 10% boost in damage. On average this is a 1.67% boost in damage. But this is for the whole raid. Now lets assume healers arent DPSing, and that adding both tanks damage together is the equivalent of 1 dps. Thats 4 DPS that receive this boost in damage (not counting yourself, since that was already built into the numbers). 4 x 1.67% is 6.68% DPS, which nudges NIN ahead of MNK. If you time the TA with burst phases, and your healers DPS then this percent increase will be even higher.

That being said, I believe MNK brings more to the table in regards to AoE.

NIN and MNK seem to be fairly balanced, with NIN having the slight edge on single target and MNK having a slight edge in AoE fights.

[Craiger]

Well bringing in the idea of skill to who will do the better dps is not relevant because it is a qualitative measurement and doesn't add anything substantial to the argument. What needs to be looked at are many different parses to actually see an average dps or median for each class. Right now it seems that DRG > MNK > NIN in terms of overall dps. But the problem is how much of a dps difference there is between the classes. It seems that DRG is between 100-200 dps higher than NIN which is pretty significant. The difference between MNK and NIN is not really known too well because DRG outshines them both too heavily so the difference is probably not that much between MNK and NIN. Essentially, MNK and NIN both need to be looked at but since NIN is the LOWEST of the 3 then NIN needs more of a look than MNK.

I don't want to start any arguments, but since you were simply comparing DPS, and saying NIN has the lowest DPS, I just need to intervene...

It's true that NIN have the lowest DPS out of the 3, but lets say your group is doing 5500-6000 combined DPS in Savage (which is needed), while I don't really have the time or want to calculate the exact numbers(can't be exact either for that matter), Trick Attack is most certainly making up for that DPS gain MNKs have over them.

You personal DPS doesn't mean anything, you can have 700 DPS, but increase everyone else total DPS by 700. A job like that wouldn't need a buff just because they're miles behind on their own DPS.

DRG buffs BRD/MCH, I'm not forgetting that, but NIN doesn't need a look more than MNK

From what I've experienced so far, NIN is about 3-4% behind MNK in DPS. However, TA more than makes up for that. Math below:
TA is up for 10 of every 60 seconds, and provides a 10% boost in damage. On average this is a 1.67% boost in damage. But this is for the whole raid. Now lets assume healers arent DPSing, and that adding both tanks damage together is the equivalent of 1 dps. Thats 4 DPS that receive this boost in damage (not counting yourself, since that was already built into the numbers). 4 x 1.67% is 6.68% DPS, which nudges NIN ahead of MNK. If you time the TA with burst phases, and your healers DPS then this percent increase will be even higher.

That being said, I believe MNK brings more to the table in regards to AoE.

NIN and MNK seem to be fairly balanced, with NIN having the slight edge on single target and MNK having a slight edge in AoE fights.

This^

I don't usually like balancing towards AoE... but since NIN really sucks at it, and MNK is awesome at it now, I can agree that the balancing between MNK and NIN are pretty good.

It's them both that needs to move closer to DRG by an equal amount.

[Uppers]

It's them both that needs to move closer to DRG by an equal amount.

I don't advocate nerfs since this game is not pvp based. In terms of equivalence you guys are arguing apples to oranges when it comes to aoe vs party utility. Everything should be compared in their respective aspect ie. single target dps vs single target dps. Therefore, DRG have the best single target dps while having the second best utility of the two classes and probably the best melee aoe. MNKs, sorry I don't know enough about a lot of your dps but I assume its second best single target, worst utility, second best aoe. NINs are the worst single target, perhaps the best utility (it isn't by much and I think SE overestimates the usefulness of support skills), and the worst aoe. Now, tell me which of these classes sounds like they are in the worst place?

[Sigmakan]

NIN could certainly use some help in the AoE department. Lowering TP cost on their AoE move would help.

[Maero]

^ that right there is a great idea. TP reduction honestly would be a nice QOL
I still honestly think though that Nin is slightly ahead of Monk, only based by all the monks i have seen/ went against and the Nin in our FC (who used to main Monk)

[Uppers]

AoE is important but it isn't what really matters in raid. Instead more emphasis has to be placed on single target dps and raid utility.