NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

[Aiselia]

other classes are using there full dps combos

A monk will never be using their full DPS combos unless they're with another monk in the party for some reason (who then has to be the one applying DK, for a DPS loss on them).

Dragon Kick is the worse DPS option over Bootshine because Bootshine is 150 potency with guaranteed crit positional while DK is 100 potency with 150 potency positional and chance to crit.

At least you have another class that can apply your debuff.

The more people complain about having to apply their own debuff without a warrior or about how tough it is to have to hit two predictable positionals every what, 20 seconds, the less it looks like they really need to be buffed to compare to other melee, because they just look spoiled.

You are the only melee that has another class that can apply your debuff for you. You are the only melee with rare AND predictable positionals. Not only predictable, but controllable, too. You're on Gust Slash and about to do AE but the boss puts AOE down on his butt? You get to move to the side and hit AC and at least hit your positional. Monks don't. Dragoons don't.

[Pluvia]

A monk will never be using their full DPS combos unless they're with another monk in the party for some reason (who then has to be the one applying DK, for a DPS loss on them).

Dragon Kick is the worse DPS option over Bootshine because Bootshine is 150 potency with guaranteed crit positional while DK is 100 potency with 150 potency positional and chance to crit.

At least you have another class that can apply your debuff.

The more people complain about having to apply their own debuff without a warrior or about how tough it is to have to hit two predictable positionals every what, 20 seconds, the less it looks like they really need to be buffed to compare to other melee, because they just look spoiled.

You are the only melee that has another class that can apply your debuff for you. You are the only melee with rare AND predictable positionals. Not only predictable, but controllable, too. You're on Gust Slash and about to do AE but the boss puts AOE down on his butt? You get to move to the side and hit AC and at least hit your positional. Monks don't. Dragoons don't.

Yet we have the most punishing positional of them all Trick Attack which isn't only a screw up for your own rotation but a complete screw up for the whole raid and needs to be changed.

Just to give prospective on the whole matter only major thing i can see needing changed right now is Trick attack and TP issues for the 100th time i've had to reply to things in these threads
But Atreides does have a point Monk is a lot more fluid in its normal rotation then ninja. Ninjutsu is like hitting a road stop to weigh in as a truck at least every 60s if you don't have bad spikes before you can continue on.

[Aiselia]

Yet we have the most punishing positional of them all Trick Attack

Every 60 seconds. And you can delay it for up to 10 seconds after Suiton if sudden AOE happens.

[Pluvia]

Guess you've never heard of the phrase shit happens I've had tanks who've had to dodge at the most inopportune times so why should ninja be punished when no other melee is punished for missing positionals anymore except for a loss of potency. So can we have some kind of fail mechanic for Battle Litany?

[Allyrion]

Yet we have the most punishing positional of them all Trick Attack which isn't only a screw up for your own rotation but a complete screw up for the whole raid needs to be changed.

The personal potency lost is understandable.
The Vulnerability Up shouldn't be tied to the positional though.
I've forgiven it up to now because it's only once a minute, but in the end you're right.

Effect being tied to positionals is the old drg design, which wasn't good.
You shouldn't lose that raid CD for a missed positional.

That and TP are probably what NIN needs most.
Well not counting Mudra lag, which everyone agrees is an issue. Just not sure if that'll be fixed soon.

[Subucnimorning]

The personal potency lost is understandable.
The Vulnerability Up shouldn't be tied to the positional though.
I've forgiven it up to now because it's only once a minute, but in the end you're right.

Effect being tied to positionals is the old drg design, which was good.
You shouldn't lose that raid CD for a missed positional.

That and TP are probably what NIN needs most.
Well not counting Mudra lag, which everyone agrees is an issue. Just not sure if that'll be fixed soon.

Couldn't agree more, people can compare 9/12 abilities for NIN don't require positionals to MNK all but ToD requiring positionals, but DRG or MNK don't have abilities that just don't work if you miss the positional that affects the entire raid's dps.

[Atreides]

Dragon Kick VS. Dancing Edge

Really? You can hardly compare a skill that you use of the START of a combo with a skill you have to dedicate a whole combo.
I main Monk and this statement is really not working, if Dragon Kick happens to Crit you lose nothing both skills have a 150 potency, it's just like Bootshine but Dancing Edge on the other hand is a DPS loss compared to Aeolians Edge no matter what.

I don't even care about positionals because positionals are piss easy.
Doesn't change the fact that Ninjas do have the one positional that gets punished the most if missed.

The funny part is positionals are the only thing going for monk which appearently makes us hard to play and people are adamant in defendig it.
If you can't hit a positional go out of you way and use Fracture or Touch of Death while moving to where you need to be.
Other jobs don't have that option because Monk work with "stances", they just suck up a straight DPS loss.

[Aiselia]

Assassinate locks you for longer than Jumps now, just saying.

And is only used once every 40 seconds at under 20% health as opposed to every 30 seconds for the entire fight.

Just saying.

Really? You can hardly compare a skill that you use of the START of a combo with a skill you have to dedicate a whole combo.

Sorry, that doesn't make a difference. Step 1 and 2 of the DE combo will be the same whether it's DE, AE, or AC being used. Remember, you're not dedicating the whole combo to DE. You're dedicating the last hit to DE. If you did two AE combos instead of one DE and one AE, the difference isn't the entire combo. The difference is the damage between DE and AE, and that's only 60 potency assuming positional's hit.

Step 2 and 3 of the combo will also be the same regardless of whether it's DK or BS being used.

Position in the combo is irrelevant.

if Dragon Kick happens to Crit you lose nothing both skills have a 150 potency

BS is 150 potency period, auto-crit from behind (for argument's sake with crit increase assumed at 50%), that's 225 potency guaranteed in position. So you're either hitting at 150 potency or 225 potency.
DK is 100 potency not in position, 150 in position, 150 crit not in position, 225 crit in position.

At best, DK matches BS. If mechanics force you to move to the back of the boss, DK crit is hitting for a non-crit BS, while non-crit is just a flat loss. If mechanics force you to the side, BS is hitting for DK period.

BS is clearly the better DPS option if DK's debuff wasn't needed.

Doesn't change the fact that Ninjas do have the one positional that gets punished the most if missed.

Every minute.

Other jobs don't have that option because Monk work with "stances", they just suck up a straight DPS loss.

The math is arguable on how many ticks you'd have to have hit on ToD/Fracture to make clipping them for 80 TP not be a DPS loss.

Edit: Actually no, let me fix this. The math isn't very arguable. ToD has 20 potency initial, 25 per tick. At 3 seconds per tick, it would take about 5 ticks (15 seconds) to equal the potency of, for example, DK or Snakes, with positional. So your ToD would need to last 15 seconds in order to be equal in damage to two attacks. It would need another 1-2 ticks (3 to 6 more seconds) to hit Snap and True. It would take 8 ticks (24 seconds) to match a positional Bootshine (assuming 50% increase in damage on crit). Demolish is 70 + 7 ticks of 40, so 350 potency. ToD won't match that even if it runs its course.

If you have not allowed ToD to last at least 15 seconds, then it would be a DPS loss to refresh it partways through just because you're moving positions, because you used 80 TP earlier to do an attack effectively weaker than another GCD you could have used earlier. And you're using another 80 TP now, leading to faster TP issues.

[Pluvia]

When Ninjutsu locks you in position for as long as Jump, sure.

Actually, that's a great solution to Ninjutsus. Make them all have cast times.

Then you get to feel what it's like to have to time it like Jump AND it fixes mudra lag!

Apparently its ok for ninja to have trick attack fuck up and not apply the raid utility but everyone else np ninjas go fuck yourselves eh. No other melee has any fail mechanic you lose massive dps anymore every since they fixed Dragoons problems back in realm reborn why should we still have it as ninja

2nd of all you can't compare Jump and trick attack since you know trick attack is one of our raid utilities at least with jump it doesn't fail if the tank decides to twitch reaction.

obviously I should just stay out of these stupid threads since no one can think objectively.

[sackm]

pretty much every A3S clear has used a ninja, that says a lot about their current place in endgame. hint: they're more desirable than mnks