Boring Endgame

[Stanelis]

The same syndrome with people who cried for years they wanted innovation in the MMO genre, and then showed no interest in MMORPGs that tried to innovate.

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

The result of this mundane game design is that it has no replay value or is plain unfun (like PVP, FATES of Hunts), so SE has to come up with ways to compel people to run the same content over and over again (like zodiac weapons grind).

Finally, the number of viewers watching FFXIV heavensward streams on twitch during the release of the expansion has been incredibly low for a new game, which proves that the game can, currently, be considered as being boring (not just the endgame).

[Colt47]

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

A lot of games use a linear progression model on gear and stats even before World of Warcraft, it's just that it wasn't the focus of the game. The psychological effects of the shift from a slow, methodical leveling up and absorption of content to the rapid pacing of today are easy to see.

The reason we are probably seeing a lot of cloning going around is a combination of "me too" and "oh hey look it works", attitude. I'd greatly appreciate it if MMORPG designers brought back the idea of paragon leveling systems and epic loot instead of completely depending on some arbitrary end game currency grind. The original Final Fantasy XI had a good pacing on leveling up, it's just the time between story segments was far too long so people couldn't advance through the main quest scenario fast enough to care about it. The way they probably should have handled the story stuff in FFXI was have it fully completable at level 35, then have 15 levels to sort of enjoy expanding ones class, grind crafting, and do other things. Then when the next expansion hit they could start the next story at level 45-55, etc. That way we no longer need an end game where we all have to meat grind and repeat the same stuff continuously.

People like to think that the older MMOs were more "hardcore" than todays, but the reality is that they just had really bad pacing. If anything they were more casual than what we got now. Heck, it's like the standard frantic American work day got somehow ported into our games when you really look at the kinds of changes that have taken place.

[Dyvid]

snip

Pretty much my sentiment. Xpac are suppose to have new, innovated idea to help reinvigorate the player base and maybe attract new players. Instead we have the same things we did in 2.0. Let's be honest now, what did 3.0 bring that 2.0 didn't have? Larger zones and flying mounts to traverse them. Did this change or enhance the way we play from day to day? Not really in my opinion. People still huddle up in Reverents Toll, oh sorry I mean Idyllshire, hanging around waiting for DF... Hunts are well, hunts which isn't a compliment. FATEs are worse than 2.0 due to risk vs reward.

FFXIV has it's player base now. It's safe to cater to them and try new ideas. You don't have to keep dumbing down content for new players because they have levels 1-50 to teach them.

[Zabuza]

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

The result of this mundane game design is that it has no replay value or is plain unfun (like PVP, FATES of Hunts), so SE has to come up with ways to compel people to run the same content over and over again (like zodiac weapons grind).

Finally, the number of viewers watching FFXIV heavensward streams on twitch during the release of the expansion has been incredibly low for a new game, which proves that the game can, currently, be considered as being boring (not just the endgame).

So in otherwords, you don't have an idea for innovation. The bolded sounds like you want the PvE content to be exactly like WoW's. WoW has the same exact issue of people complaining when they feel they've gone through the content btw. They just went through a year long content drought and are about to go through another. People are complaining there much worse than here.

As for your stream comment, I watched Towelliee play FFXIV on stream and people were enjoying it. He even had 3000+ players watching it when he was being paid to play it. The story is enjoyable to watch. I was bored watching him play WoW doing the same PvE content and GARRISONS/SHIPYARDS over and over. This is the nature of PvE content, you learn how it works and then when you figure it out, it's now boring. Our age of social media is another reason PvE content is blown through and we have this issue. In an age where people are EXPECTED to watch videos, people know how the fight works before they even do it for the first time, thus clearing it faster. There is no process of wiping to figure out the mechanics, unless you're among the world firsts going through the content. Some games aren't as fun to watch as others as well. WoW's 1.5 second GCD would by default make the combat more fun to watch than Heavensward's 2.5 second GCD. Doesn't mean it's not as fun to play.

Pretty much my sentiment. Xpac are suppose to have new, innovated idea to help reinvigorate the player base and maybe attract new players. Instead we have the same things we did in 2.0. Let's be honest now, what did 3.0 bring that 2.0 didn't have? Larger zones and flying mounts to traverse them. Did this change or enhance the way we play from day to day? Not really in my opinion. People still huddle up in Reverents Toll, oh sorry I mean Idyllshire, hanging around waiting for DF... Hunts are well, hunts which isn't a compliment. FATEs are worse than 2.0 due to risk vs reward.

FFXIV has it's player base now. It's safe to cater to them and try new ideas. You don't have to keep dumbing down content for new players because they have levels 1-50 to teach them.

I'm still waiting to hear your amazing innovative ideas.

People like to think that the older MMOs were more "hardcore" than todays, but the reality is that they just had really bad pacing. If anything they were more casual than what we got now. Heck, it's like the standard frantic American work day got somehow ported into our games when you really look at the kinds of changes that have taken place.

Try beating CoP in FFXI pre-nerf and then tell me that. That was STORY content btw. Can you imagine the outrage on these forums if the story was that difficult in THIS game? Imagine if The Chrysalis Trial was as difficult as the Proto-Ultima fight in CoP pre nerf. Imagine if Steps of Faith was as difficult as pre-nerf Snoll. The difficulty of CoP's fights made pre-nerf Steps of Faith look like a joke in comparison. Fight Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden with a raid group and tell me that.

[Stanelis]

So in otherwords, you don't have an idea for innovation. The bolded sounds like you want the PvE content to be exactly like WoW's. WoW has the same exact issue of people complaining when they feel they've gone through the content btw. They just went through a year long content drought and are able to go through another. People are complaining there much worse than here.

Mate I'm no game designer at SE, it is not my job to provide new ideas. However I'm a tabletop RPG player and a long time MMORPG player. Also, the content of wow has been very linear since burning crusade (and I know quite well what I'm talking about).

Also I'm not complaining that there isn't enough content on FFXIV, but rather that it is mundane and lacks insight.

As for your stream comment, I watched Towelliee play FFXIV on stream and people were enjoying it. He even had 3000+ players watching it when he was being paid to play it. The story is enjoyable to watch. I was bored watching him play WoW doing the same PvE content and GARRISONS/SHIPYARDS over and over. This is the nature of PvE content, you learn how it works and then when you figure it out, it's now boring. Our age of social media is another reason PvE content is blown through and we have this issue. In an age where people are EXPECTED to watch videos, people know how the fight works before they even do it for the first time, thus clearing it faster. There is no process of wiping to figure out the mechanics, unless you're among the world firsts going through the content. Some games aren't as fun to watch as others as well. WoW's 1.5 second GCD would by default make the combat more fun to watch than Heavensward's 2.5 second GCD. Doesn't mean it's not as fun to play.

The fact that there are more players watching wow (or any other game) than FFXIV has little to do with GCD ... (what makes the interest of a MMO isn't how fast you push on buttons) Mundane and boring summarize quite well the situation on FFXIV.

[Zabuza]

Mate I'm no game designer at SE, it is not my job to provide new ideas. However I'm a tabletop RPG player and a long time MMORPG player.

Also I'm not complaining that there isn't enough content on FFXIV, but rather that it is mundane and lacks insight.

Perhaps, but here's the thing. WoW's raids are the way they are because the crew at the very top were former EQ raiders. It was their passion. That is why WoW has always had the best raids. Doesn't mean they have the best everything else. Every MMO is weak somewhere. There is a finite amount of resources and manpower available for every MMO company to use. So if SE focuses more on raiding, some other area will suffer as a result. I'm not really sure people would be in favor of more trash in raids. Not unless it had a 1-5% chance to drop some kind of decent loot.

Either way at the end of the day, it's not really that smart to design content for at best 10% of your playerbase while ripping manpower/resources from other things.

Oh sorry, let me go through 1000+ post I created over the years for your benefit. You want to see my idea then dig through my history.

Why would I go through the trouble of digging through 1000+ of your posts to find it? Surely since you're the one who made the posts, you can remember what you said no? Or at the very least you'd remember in which posts you stated solutions. Sorry, not digging through every one of your posts.

As far as raids go, there really are only two ways to do everything you can for raiders. They could make more raid bosses per three month cycle. They could also increase the difficulty to give raiders the illusion of time. If it takes them almost three months to beat ultra difficult raid bosses they will complain about the difficulty instead of lack of content. FFXIV's raid bosses that exist have already thrown so many different mechanics at you, and some people say there's no innovation there, /shrug.

But here, I'll throw out my ideas concerning PvE. This is actually something probably not possible in FFXIV at this point. My idea is to give more power to players. I'm talking about the ability to create mods, outfits, skins, and even maps. No official MMORPG I've seen does this(with the exception of mods.)

A little "game" I've played before called Second Life allows you an unparalleled level of customization on your avatar. This is because they allow players to create outfits, avatar accessories, skins, hair, etc. I'm thinking if an MMO allowed this there would be a lot for crafters to do. They could craft design skins that may or may not sell well depending how popular their design is received. The ability to create mods to polish the interface to sleek perfection is another thing. WoW already has this. I also think players should be able to host their own events in the MMO world, as well as create their own PvP maps or random PvE occurrences. This doesn't solve the raiding issue directly, but it would allow SE to have a treasure trove of content without even devoting some of their resources to creating said content. Players will do it for free, because certain players have a passion for creating these things. In return people have a ton of things to do. Furthermore, being able to host events as a player would truly put the RPG back in MMORPG. The key to implementing this while still retaining the progression is to only offer cosmetic rewards in the player created content, never the official rewards that would have increased stats. People would dabble in these things to check them out, or for the fun of designing. Imagine the amount of outfits and avatar skins if this was implemented. Not a single player would look the same as the other.

I don't think this is possible to implement in FFXIV at this point, but that's my idea for innovation in the MMORPG genre as a whole. To give players some power to create for themselves.

[Stanelis]

Perhaps, but here's the thing. WoW's raids are the way they are because the crew at the very top were former EQ raiders. It was their passion. That is why WoW has always had the best raids. Doesn't mean they have the best everything else. Every MMO is weak somewhere. There is a finite amount of resources and manpower available for every MMO company to use. So if SE focuses more on raiding, some other area will suffer as a result. I'm not really sure people would be in favor of more trash in raids. Not unless it had a 1-5% chance to drop some kind of decent loot.

Either way at the end of the day, it's not really that smart to design content for at best 10% of your playerbase while ripping manpower/resources from other things.

The thing is FFXIV is weak on every aspect other than graphics and art design. While it was understandable during 2.0 (as SE was in a rush), it is harder to understand in Heavensward.

Either way at the end of the day, it's not really that smart to design content for at best 10% of your playerbase while ripping manpower/resources from other things.

In order to improve game design one only need a paper and a pencil (any tabletop RPG player knows that).

[Zabuza]

The thing is FFXIV is weak on every aspect other than graphics and art design. While it was understandable during 2.0 (as SE was in a rush), it is harder to understand in Heavensward.

Sounds like this game isn't for you if you think that.

Open world primal with FC primal summoning.

I could've swore this idea was talked about quite a bit before Realm Reborn even launched. I wonder what happened to it?

[Reaperking386]

Sounds like this game isn't for you if you think that.



I could've swore this idea was talked about quite a bit before Realm Reborn even launched. I wonder what happened to it?

It was. The major problem was that you cannot have a boss that drops loot that can be tagged easily by anyone with out it being contested. They felt fates were a better solution for Odin and Behemoth since it allowed everyone to get good gear at the time without killing it with bots and campers.

[BlaiseArath]

I feel like you are wrong. Story is amazing and content is wide to everyone. It just depends on what appeals to you or does not. If nothing is appealing to you find a new game that does. Isn't that the MMORPG dream? Find a game that meets your standards? Because asking it to change for you is like a girl saying "I am going to change him."

I think I brought this up, its not that the game itself isn't fun, its that it has little to no replay value in its content. Doing something the firs time, sometimes even the second or third can be a thrill and enjoyable, but they design content so you'll be doing it a hundred times between expansion, yet the content itself feels like it was designed to be done once and never touched again. Its almost counter-productive design. Each thing is an awesome experience in itself. Yes Ravana was fun, Bismark was fun, even the 2.0 primals were fun.. the first few times... but its the only thing you'll be doing for months on end, it becomes "not fun".

So yah, they're not entirely bad but it feels like they have no time to consider, or just don't care to consider, "How can we keep this fresh the 30th time they do it?". It just seems or feel short sighted. I've already said how they could fix this in previous posts before... but some basic examples on how they could fix dungeons---

*-Add Multiple pathways, with different bosses each path. Perhaps 3-4 per dungeon, chosen at random when you enter the dungeon via Duty-Finder/Roulette as to prevent the "Go quickest route" runs. Its random unless you pre-make, then you can chose when entering (like undersized parties). Guild Wars 2 does this with their dungeons (though you can chose them, each has a daily reward so people do them all).
*-Mix up the mob groups that spawn for each path. Maybe have a handful of possibilities each path with the general difficulty remaining the same.
*-Perhaps add "Mini-Bosses" that sometimes spawn in place of a normal mob pack. These bosses would then drop a chest possibly containing a dungeon armor, or some (Unique dyes), even a chance at the dungeon exclusive minion.
*-Some people like puzzles, maybe one of the paths could have fewer enemies but with puzzles to solve to progress.
*-Spice up boss fights. They don't all need to be Square/Circle dodge mechanics. Something like Steps of Faith/A2 where some people are constantly doing a certain mechanic while others fight the boss... though maybe a little simpler for the sake of it being a dungeon and not a raid. Given time I could imagine some fights but on the spot, no. And that doesn't mean I can't think of any, SE has months of time to design fights... give me 2 months and I think I can design a couple dungeons as well.

There are a handful of ways they could design content for longer life... And I think this would improve the game as a whole. While the above ideas would eventually become common knowledge, at least theres a strong chance no two consecutive runs would be exactly the same. Each time would at least be a "Which path do we have this time?" "Will there be a Mini-boss? Will he drop the minion?", "I wonder if we'll be doing the puzzles this time?". Adding even some small amount of variety to the dungeons like that would go a long way to increasing their replay value. It wouldn't make them infinitely replayable, but it would definitely be more replayable than before.

When your game revolves around doing the exact same content 100 times to gear up your multiple jobs, that content needs an element of random to add variety and keep it fresh for longer. Its not a difficult philosophy to understand.