Boring Endgame

[Writer]

I was thinking more along the lines of, let's say, how you can enter dungeons undersized. Except you could go from solo to max amount of party members and even form some sort of alliance or whatever with another party to tackle it together, but it's not required to be a certain size. It would be done for end game content rather than old game content. Imagine a hunt that is party restricted because you have the wanted poster - other parties can't attack it but you can and you can either form a party or decide to go after it solo. It would be designed for eight max but can be done from 1 to 8. Open world so no ring lines. That kind of thing which I understand is different.

[Nadirah]

I think the problem here is that you're too selective in your activities and have too much time spent iin game.

Have three jobs at 60, working on 4 and 5, and just started my crafting. I grow my fc's garden and keep our chocobos trained. We run stuff almost nightly.

I'm not bored. You don't speak for me. I'm sorry you're so bored with not having five tiers of hardcore raids in a game that's not really focused on hardcore raids because that's obviously the only thing to do at level cap.

[BubblyBoar]

But...isn't that the same as instanced content? What is different about it at all aside from the fact that you can challenge it with less than 8 people? People can watch you fight it? I don't understand really. That said, to make it possible to be done with a single person (or any varying size from 1-8) would make it too easy for people that are bored with endgame content now.

[Stanelis]

The same syndrome with people who cried for years they wanted innovation in the MMO genre, and then showed no interest in MMORPGs that tried to innovate.

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

The result of this mundane game design is that it has no replay value or is plain unfun (like PVP, FATES of Hunts), so SE has to come up with ways to compel people to run the same content over and over again (like zodiac weapons grind).

Finally, the number of viewers watching FFXIV heavensward streams on twitch during the release of the expansion has been incredibly low for a new game, which proves that the game can, currently, be considered as being boring (not just the endgame).

[Colt47]

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

A lot of games use a linear progression model on gear and stats even before World of Warcraft, it's just that it wasn't the focus of the game. The psychological effects of the shift from a slow, methodical leveling up and absorption of content to the rapid pacing of today are easy to see.

The reason we are probably seeing a lot of cloning going around is a combination of "me too" and "oh hey look it works", attitude. I'd greatly appreciate it if MMORPG designers brought back the idea of paragon leveling systems and epic loot instead of completely depending on some arbitrary end game currency grind. The original Final Fantasy XI had a good pacing on leveling up, it's just the time between story segments was far too long so people couldn't advance through the main quest scenario fast enough to care about it. The way they probably should have handled the story stuff in FFXI was have it fully completable at level 35, then have 15 levels to sort of enjoy expanding ones class, grind crafting, and do other things. Then when the next expansion hit they could start the next story at level 45-55, etc. That way we no longer need an end game where we all have to meat grind and repeat the same stuff continuously.

People like to think that the older MMOs were more "hardcore" than todays, but the reality is that they just had really bad pacing. If anything they were more casual than what we got now. Heck, it's like the standard frantic American work day got somehow ported into our games when you really look at the kinds of changes that have taken place.

[Dyvid]

snip

Pretty much my sentiment. Xpac are suppose to have new, innovated idea to help reinvigorate the player base and maybe attract new players. Instead we have the same things we did in 2.0. Let's be honest now, what did 3.0 bring that 2.0 didn't have? Larger zones and flying mounts to traverse them. Did this change or enhance the way we play from day to day? Not really in my opinion. People still huddle up in Reverents Toll, oh sorry I mean Idyllshire, hanging around waiting for DF... Hunts are well, hunts which isn't a compliment. FATEs are worse than 2.0 due to risk vs reward.

FFXIV has it's player base now. It's safe to cater to them and try new ideas. You don't have to keep dumbing down content for new players because they have levels 1-50 to teach them.

[Zabuza]

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

The result of this mundane game design is that it has no replay value or is plain unfun (like PVP, FATES of Hunts), so SE has to come up with ways to compel people to run the same content over and over again (like zodiac weapons grind).

Finally, the number of viewers watching FFXIV heavensward streams on twitch during the release of the expansion has been incredibly low for a new game, which proves that the game can, currently, be considered as being boring (not just the endgame).

So in otherwords, you don't have an idea for innovation. The bolded sounds like you want the PvE content to be exactly like WoW's. WoW has the same exact issue of people complaining when they feel they've gone through the content btw. They just went through a year long content drought and are about to go through another. People are complaining there much worse than here.

As for your stream comment, I watched Towelliee play FFXIV on stream and people were enjoying it. He even had 3000+ players watching it when he was being paid to play it. The story is enjoyable to watch. I was bored watching him play WoW doing the same PvE content and GARRISONS/SHIPYARDS over and over. This is the nature of PvE content, you learn how it works and then when you figure it out, it's now boring. Our age of social media is another reason PvE content is blown through and we have this issue. In an age where people are EXPECTED to watch videos, people know how the fight works before they even do it for the first time, thus clearing it faster. There is no process of wiping to figure out the mechanics, unless you're among the world firsts going through the content. Some games aren't as fun to watch as others as well. WoW's 1.5 second GCD would by default make the combat more fun to watch than Heavensward's 2.5 second GCD. Doesn't mean it's not as fun to play.

Pretty much my sentiment. Xpac are suppose to have new, innovated idea to help reinvigorate the player base and maybe attract new players. Instead we have the same things we did in 2.0. Let's be honest now, what did 3.0 bring that 2.0 didn't have? Larger zones and flying mounts to traverse them. Did this change or enhance the way we play from day to day? Not really in my opinion. People still huddle up in Reverents Toll, oh sorry I mean Idyllshire, hanging around waiting for DF... Hunts are well, hunts which isn't a compliment. FATEs are worse than 2.0 due to risk vs reward.

FFXIV has it's player base now. It's safe to cater to them and try new ideas. You don't have to keep dumbing down content for new players because they have levels 1-50 to teach them.

I'm still waiting to hear your amazing innovative ideas.

People like to think that the older MMOs were more "hardcore" than todays, but the reality is that they just had really bad pacing. If anything they were more casual than what we got now. Heck, it's like the standard frantic American work day got somehow ported into our games when you really look at the kinds of changes that have taken place.

Try beating CoP in FFXI pre-nerf and then tell me that. That was STORY content btw. Can you imagine the outrage on these forums if the story was that difficult in THIS game? Imagine if The Chrysalis Trial was as difficult as the Proto-Ultima fight in CoP pre nerf. Imagine if Steps of Faith was as difficult as pre-nerf Snoll. The difficulty of CoP's fights made pre-nerf Steps of Faith look like a joke in comparison. Fight Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden with a raid group and tell me that.

[Stanelis]

So in otherwords, you don't have an idea for innovation. The bolded sounds like you want the PvE content to be exactly like WoW's. WoW has the same exact issue of people complaining when they feel they've gone through the content btw. They just went through a year long content drought and are able to go through another. People are complaining there much worse than here.

Mate I'm no game designer at SE, it is not my job to provide new ideas. However I'm a tabletop RPG player and a long time MMORPG player. Also, the content of wow has been very linear since burning crusade (and I know quite well what I'm talking about).

Also I'm not complaining that there isn't enough content on FFXIV, but rather that it is mundane and lacks insight.

As for your stream comment, I watched Towelliee play FFXIV on stream and people were enjoying it. He even had 3000+ players watching it when he was being paid to play it. The story is enjoyable to watch. I was bored watching him play WoW doing the same PvE content and GARRISONS/SHIPYARDS over and over. This is the nature of PvE content, you learn how it works and then when you figure it out, it's now boring. Our age of social media is another reason PvE content is blown through and we have this issue. In an age where people are EXPECTED to watch videos, people know how the fight works before they even do it for the first time, thus clearing it faster. There is no process of wiping to figure out the mechanics, unless you're among the world firsts going through the content. Some games aren't as fun to watch as others as well. WoW's 1.5 second GCD would by default make the combat more fun to watch than Heavensward's 2.5 second GCD. Doesn't mean it's not as fun to play.

The fact that there are more players watching wow (or any other game) than FFXIV has little to do with GCD ... (what makes the interest of a MMO isn't how fast you push on buttons) Mundane and boring summarize quite well the situation on FFXIV.

[Dyvid]

I'm still waiting to hear your amazing innovative ideas.

Oh sorry, let me go through 1000+ post I created over the years for your benefit. You want to see my idea then dig through my history.

What would you prefer to see different?

Since you asked nicely, people have been wanting Hamlet defense back and Ishgard setting is perfect for it with dragons raiding settlements. Rare treasure maps that drop from dungeons that require a full alliance to win. Open world primal with FC primal summoning.

Basically a solid mix for DF content and content for FC's to do.

[Colt47]

Try beating CoP in FFXI pre-nerf and then tell me that. That was STORY content btw. Can you imagine the outrage on these forums if the story was that difficult in THIS game? Imagine if The Chrysalis Trial was as difficult as the Proto-Ultima fight in CoP pre nerf. Imagine if Steps of Faith was as difficult as pre-nerf Snoll. The difficulty of CoP's fights made pre-nerf Steps of Faith look like a joke in comparison. Fight Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden with a raid group and tell me that.

That was the point, though. Not everyone was capable of beating COP pre-nerf, so they moved on to do other things, like crafting, leveling jobs, and just having a good time. The content of CoP was originally level capped at levels that were not at end game status, so it was possible to keep advancing in some way without having to necessarily go through CoP. Right now all the hard content is at end game, so we are forced to complete it to advance our characters. That is why FFXI was more casual even though it had harder content.