I chose BRD for swift gameplay, if I wanted to cast I would have chosen a Mage.

[Nexxa]

BRD can't do damage at all while in WM and moving.

I should of been more clear. I felt turning it off would of been a given. Sorry.

[JarinArenos]

I should of been more clear. I felt turning it off would of been a given. Sorry.

You were clear. A lot of complaints in this thread boil down to "you can... turn... it off? <I don't understand>"

[Raist]

I should of been more clear. I felt turning it off would of been a given. Sorry.

If you've passed the 15 second cooldown you can turn it off. Then you have to wait another 15 seconds to put it back up.

It has thrust a potentially highly frustrating mechanic onto the more traditional BRD's.

And to add fuel to the fire... the damage increase is NOT a whopping 30%. As I noted in a previous post--AA's can pick up most if not all of the gains from switching modes during the lower levels, which is not balanced against the potential negatives for using it (be that in-game risk or heightened blood pressure). AA's can be around 50% of some of the common WS damage used in the kit---and they will fire between the WS cooldowns. Overtime, it can pick up a considerable amount of the slack (if not overcome it) between the 30% modifier with WM versus no WM.

[Gamer3427]

BRD can't do damage at all while in WM and moving--so in that regard you are on equal footing with a casting class. Remember.. WM disables auto attacks. Aside from applied DoT's, the ONLY way you do damage is from your weapon skills when WM is up---which now have casting timers that require you to stop moving to fire them off.

Which is still more than most casting classes have, since they tend to only have one or maybe two skills in all that are OGC. Also, cross class an attack skill like feint from lancer. I have it on my MCH right now for those moments when I have to move a lot but still want to put out some damage. It still does relatively good damage, (slight trade off DPS wise for the slow effect that affects most enemies short of bosses), and doesn't have a cast time even with GB equiped, so I would imagine it's the same for WM. Also, it's on the global cooldown so you can spam it every couple of seconds between OGC skills. The only thing I can't confirm is whether or not it benefits from the 30% damage buff, as I haven't tested it since it's purely so I can put out some bonus damage while moving, regardless of what that damage is. Also, while I'm not familiar with BRD's actual skill line up, if it's anything like MCH then you should have plenty of off GCD skills to pick from during a brief dodge window when you can't use a casted skill. If you're having to move for a long enough period of time that you run out then you probably don't need WM/GB on to begin with for a few moments. If they all happen to be on cooldown when you're dodging and you don't have a cross classed GC skill, then congratulations! You're argument for having the same can't attack while moving issue casters have is finally a reality. Well, except that you can turn it off if it ever reaches a point where you're putting out less DPS by having to cast....

In all honesty, even before the damage buff to WM/GB, I haven't seen the problem people have with it. It's a situational skill. You're supposed to use it to adapt while fighting to allow you to either do more damage or have more mobility depending on the situation. Also in all honesty, I've never seen a BRD moving any more in runs than any other ranged DPS, and most of the time they do, it's just long enough to avoid an attack before they go back to standing still, which most of the time only takes long enough that they might miss out on one or two attacks at most. The only time I can really see this coming into play is when you're running a new dungeon for the first time and you need to stay mobile because you don't know the attack pattern. If that's the case, just leave WM/GB off until you figure it out, and then judge whether you need the mobility or the damage more.....

From an outside view point from someone who never played BRD before and who fell in love with MCH instantly, I may be missing some key aspect that people can't seem to explain properly. You still have all the mobility you used to have, you just have the option to lower it slightly, (but still well above that of every other class), in exchange for more DPS. It really just sounds like people complaining because they couldn't just get an across the board potency buff, (since so many people complain that BRD/MCH "potential" DPS is too low, while the "actual" DPS in a run is still quite good if the player knows what they're doing), and are instead given a rather powerful stance change skill that has an overall minor downside.....

In the end though, this is just my opinion on it based on my observations and experiences. As one of the relatively few MCH to be found in endgame content, maybe it counts for something, and maybe it doesn't. Either way, I just thought I'd share.....

EDIT:

If you've passed the 15 second cooldown you can turn it off. Then you have to wait another 15 seconds to put it back up.

Unless this is implemented completely differently for WM than it is for GB, then you're wrong here. The cooldown only goes up when you activate it. You can deactivate it, then instantly reactivate it if you so choose. I know, because I do this from time to time if when going into a fight I accidentally take down GB only to decide I do want it up less than a second later.....

[Raist]

Simple numbers to demonstrate:

you have a WS that does 400 damage, and AA lands 200 normally. The WS has a cooldown before use--during that time AA fires at least once...consistently.

With WM up, that same WS now does 520 damage, and you more or less still have the same cooldown before you can fire again (at least it is long enough to fire an AA). But guess what...AA is disabled when WM is up.

You don't reach a state to fully offset that shortcoming until you progress the job considerably further along it's skill tree. It should have been a noticeable benefit from day one....but that is not the case.

[Gamer3427]

Simple numbers to demonstrate:

you have a WS that does 400 damage, and AA lands 200 normally. The WS has a cooldown before use--during that time AA fires at least once...consistently.

With WM up, that same WS now does 520 damage, and you more or less still have the same cooldown before you can fire again (at least it is long enough to fire an AA). But guess what...AA is disabled when WM is up.

You don't reach a state to fully offset that shortcoming until you progress the job considerably further along it's skill tree. It should have been a noticeable benefit from day one....but that is not the case.

Again, comparing MCH to BRD here as I haven't leveled Bard. You're also comparing the damage boost from a single basic attack. Again as well, I can't be certain as I haven't done testing in a while and don't remember what testing showed when I did do it, but I think that the damage bonus is applied to all your attacks, including OGC skills. Additionally you have your stance specific skills that add a nice chunk of damage every now and then. You can't simply isolate what the worst players would be doing, (IE only using the one attack and never throwing in OGC skills, DoTs, ect), and call it valid data as to why losing the Auto-Attack lowers your DPS by so much. It certainly lowers a lazy player's DPS by quite a bit, but players who actively try to put out good DPS benefit from it in spite of losing the AA. Again though, maybe in spite of everyone complaining that they're "basically the same class", BRD and MCH are completely different in this regard, and your main source of damage really is your AA.....

EDIT:

I edited the post for grammar slightly. I didn't change the meaning, just a few errors on my part grammatically. It's late. Give me a break in that regard at least.....

[Raist]

Edit: forgot to respond to this point last night:

Unless this is implemented completely differently for WM than it is for GB, then you're wrong here. The cooldown only goes up when you activate it. You can deactivate it, then instantly reactivate it if you so choose. I know, because I do this from time to time if when going into a fight I accidentally take down GB only to decide I do want it up less than a second later.....

Nope...it is in fact different for BRD. WM is deactivated upon reuse--you have to wait for the 15 second cooldown and cast it again to remove it. You can't click the icon on your status bar, and you can't queue it up again right after using it. You get a message that it is not available yet until the cooldown expires. You can't just pop in and out of the stance continually. It requires careful consideration for when to use and not use it during a fight--and it seems many players are preferring to keep their strafing/auto-attack options open.



The boost only applies to the WS. And you are stuck with the same WS and rotations until you gain more levels and unlock new WS options. The loss of Auto Attacks between WS's and while strafing has a lot of potential to offset the boost you get from WM UNTIL you at least learn a new WS to put in the rotation. And even that has been questioned. No one has provided the numbers to prove it one way or the other yet though.

Your primary WS are basically the same potency (140 and 150). Against my current stats when I was tinkering with some dummies the other night it was a base of around 370 (580 crit) and 420 (620 crit), with Auto Attacks landing around 220(360 crit) between each WS. With WM up the numbers were around 470 (760 crit) and 510 (780 crits) with no auto attacks. Remember--normally you get AA's landing between the WS cooldown cycles. They sometimes even proc alongside your WS as well (which is kind of odd, but it happens). The numbers just don't seem to be there to support increased DPS when you get WM, and possibly for a long time after you gain access to it either.

Until you hit 54 and quest Empy Arrow (only usable with WM up, 15 second recast)--there just doesn't appear to be enough reason to use WM. And even then there is the question if the potential burst damage is there to offset the gap in most fights. IT may not even be truly beneficial until you unlock Iron Jaws at 56 (resets DoT timers with one WS instead of having to fire off two to reset them) or possibly even Sidewinder at 60 (extra potency on WS if DoT's are still up). So you basically wind up making a major shift in how you approach everything after you've played 54+levels on the job---for some that is around 2 years of game play (or more...remember, some were here for 1.0).

And that is a major gripe. It doesn't seem to have viable utility until you advance the job further in levels--unlike other jobs that quite obviously benefited right away when they got their stances. Despite the imbalance, there are those pressuring people to use what seems like a less optimal strategy. For some jobs the new additions simply are not a boost right away, while for some they just got another move to boost performance.

Even if it does wind up being a big bump in DPS if managed well at 60, this is still a major revamp of how they already ran the job for 60 levels and in some cases it apparently is simply too off-putting for them to stick with it. Hopefully SE will one day take note of it and make adjustments to make people more comfortable with their vision. For now... there will be many unconvinced until we see some hard data demonstrating enough of a difference to sway them one way or the other.

[JarinArenos]

"not useful until later" seems to be a common theme in the new job abilities. Blood of the Dragon is basically useless without Fang and Claw, and then getting Wheeling Thrust actually actively weakens you (rotation and position suddenly becomes unpredictable, for no given benefit). Ruin III is literally useless without Dreadwyrm Trance, four levels later...

Mostly, I think it's not really useful to discuss the functionality of new abilities pre-60, since a lot of classes have abilities that are explicitly designed to be used together, but due to the structure of quests, had to be given individually. While it's not the best design, it also costs you nothing to simply... not use it until you get the other parts of the intended "ability set"

[Raist]

While it's not the best design, it also costs you nothing to simply... not use it until you get the other parts of the intended "ability set"

and that statement cuts through to the heart of the matter...people taking an aggressive stance against the players not wanting to use them until they feel viable in their kit.

[JarinArenos]

Wait.... I seem to have missed that half of the argument. People are actually calling out bards for not using WM in the 52-58 range? Every complaint I'd seen so far was that WM was just kinda crappy, even at 60.