Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM

[SuzakuCMX]

*snip*

I...literally just listed the ways in which cards are always useful.

It seems to me at this point you are just denying the power of the card buffs. Astrologian doesn't seem to be for you. Like I said, the problem is that their baseline healing is too weak to even compete as a healer unless you are overgeared for the content. The buffs on top of being able to keep the party alive are the draw. And the buffs are strong, given how often you can pump them out.

[GideonHighmourn]

I...literally just listed the ways in which cards are always useful.

No, you didn't. You listed the priority you use for dealing with card RNG in a perfect scenario, but failed to acknowledge that RNG exists.

Your list didn't account for drawing the same card you didn't need previously twice (or more) from either Shuffle or Draw. Every buff is not always useful, period. RNG/cooldowns makes sure of that, along with group composition, specifically in 4 man groups.

What happens when you draw Ewer 6 times in a row with no MDPS? What happens when you draw Spire 4 times with no PDPS? What about drawing the Bole several times when no one is taking significant damage?

Are they always useful then, or will you continue to deny that this happens (due to RNG)?

Yes, you can help manage the RNG factor in perfect scenarios through smart play. However, when RNG doesn't play to your advantage, there is nothing you can do to make your class more useful compared to WHM/SCH.

[SuzakuCMX]

No, you didn't. You listed the priority you use for dealing with card RNG, but failed to acknowledge that RNG exists.

Your list didn't account for drawing the same card you didn't need previously twice from either Shuffle or Draw. Every buff is not always useful, period. RNG/cooldowns makes sure of that, along with group composition, specifically in 4 man groups.

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

You seem to have trouble mitigating RNG. I was trying to help with that. You see "RNG, don't think these buffs are useful, therefore buffs suck" and say AST sucks, instead of trying to see how a card can always be useful.

I can't make it any clearer for you than what I said before, at this point we're just yelling "No I'm right!" back and forth.

[GideonHighmourn]

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

The poster immediately above you stated the exact thing I've been trying to explain more clearly.

You are also ignoring the entire second half of the same post you quoted; I edited it afterwards to make it more clear.

You are still ignoring the RNG like it's perfectly manageable in every possible situation, but it's not. Yes, I know who to use cards on. Yes, I know I can RR/Shuffle them to try again; however, this only mitigates the RNG sometimes, but doesn't control it.

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

You seem to have trouble mitigating RNG. I was trying to help with that. You see "RNG, don't think these buffs are useful, therefore buffs suck" and say AST sucks, instead of trying to see how a card can always be useful.

I can't make it any clearer for you than what I said before, at this point we're just yelling "No I'm right!" back and forth.

It's not a question whether or not it's useful, it's a question of whether or not it's worth dealing with lower healing throughput and trashy cooldowns for something as marginal as a slight TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage. It is illusion of strategy if survivability increase is 0.01%.

Either make the cards so good and so controllable they actually make a difference (as opposed to "huh, that's cool" format they have now) or revamp the baseline healing ability to the point it doesn't become a burden.

[SuzakuCMX]

It's not a question whether or not it's useful, it's a question of whether or not it's worth dealing with lower healing throughput and trashy cooldowns

Which is why I'm saying focus on buffing their healing and CDs and not their cards

TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage.

AST is fine in everything but the end raids, which is where TP and MP management is an issue. Which is when you want those cards.

As for the damage reduction, I doubt SE has balanced any fights on 10% Damage Reduction from an RNG card, which means Bole is just making the healers and the tanks breathe easier when you draw it.

As I am repeating for at least the 3rd time in this thread, AST are healers first and buffs are icing. They currently cannot compete on a basic healing level and that is the problem.

It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful."

No, there isn't. Useful means "able to be used," as opposed to "unable to be used," as in there is no point in that card.

Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run.

Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.

Okay, yeah, but "Is fine" is a bad proposition. Why would I take an AST into a 4 man when I can go as a SCH, offer consistent haste and DPS, and finish the dungeon much faster without breaking a sweat?

[SuzakuCMX]

Okay, yeah, but "Is fine" is a bad proposition. Why would I take an AST into a 4 man when I can go as a SCH, offer consistent haste and DPS, and finish the dungeon much faster without breaking a sweat?

Because you don't need a WHM or SCH to clear the dungeon, you find AST more fun, they complete the content just as well as the SCH or WHM, and they don't actually finish dungeons much more quickly than an AST?

Whether or not they feel satisfying in a dungeon is a totally different argument than whether or not they are balanced vs. SCH or WHM. I agree that cards feel lacking in four-man content because half the cards don't feel as useful in four-man content, especially when you never run out of TP in dungeons unless you died and you continually draw Spear and Spire.

But then again, if you made the card buffs powerful enough to always be useful in 4-mans, they'd likely be far too powerful for 8-mans.

[Alahra]

No, there isn't. Useful means "able to be used," as opposed to "unable to be used," as in there is no point in that card.

Colloquially, there is, especially when it comes to game mechanics/abilities. Nobody posting on these forums is writing dissertations, they're instead writing informally, and so sometimes you have to get at their *intent* rather than the very letter of what they wrote. When people are saying the cards don't feel "useful," they mean that they aren't noticing their impact in play, even if they know the "proper" way to use them.

Spire, for instance, has a pretty obvious use, but when used to reduce TP costs, it frequently has no *impact*. Ditto for Ewer or Spear.

And, for what it's worth, 4-man dungeons do matter. Everyone has to do them for tomes. Don't pretend that the general dominance of BRD and BLM in 4-man dungeons at 2.0 didn't play a part in the adjustments that followed for melee classes (though they were not, obviously, the *whole* part). The devs do consider balance in the game as a whole. Personally, I heal primarily in 4-mans and DPS in 8-mans, and I am sure there are many players that do in fact care how a class performs or whether or not it is fun in 4-mans.

[lirovaldo]

I don't play AST, but i don't need to to see that ewer and spire are both useless.

Why? A decent DRK needs no help to manage his MP. SCH and SMN never had MP issues. WHM seems to be the on a similar level now and, as for BLM, you will most likely mess his rotation.

Spire? Come on. It's only relevant when used on a DRK and only when he's off-tanking, but that's because of some glaring design issues the kit has. Both PLD and WAR can manage just fine (as they should). And it doesn't come even close to what goad brings to the table (not to mention you rely on RNGsus. With cooldowns as long as they are, god forbid you if you burn the card at an incorrect time). Spire doesn't help if your target is low on TP already.