Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM

[Alahra]

I don't think combining cards is a good option because it mitigates the RNG far too much. From what I've seen in the bug reports forum, Spear was also supposed to lower the cooldowns of abilities already used, which it doesn't so far, and changing it to that would make it MUCH better.

Sadly that's not yet confirmed to be the case. A bug moves to the "Accepted" forum only when it's acknowledged that the Bug Report was *filed* correctly. It doesn't mean the bug has actually been confirmed.

[GideonHighmourn]

I don't think combining cards is a good option because it mitigates the RNG far too much. From what I've seen in the bug reports forum, Spear was also supposed to lower the cooldowns of abilities already used, which it doesn't so far, and changing it to that would make it MUCH better.

Link to that information, please?

Being an "accepted bug" doesn't mean "confirmed bug with incoming fix". It just means that person completed the bug report properly, and it was accepted as an entry.

The RNG factor is what makes AST so terrible in 4-man groups. It needs to be mitigated, especially since Spire/Ewer/Spear are almost always a complete waste of Draw in 4-man content. Drawing any one of these cards more than once makes me regret playing AST over WHM/SCH; it's infuriating.

[SuzakuCMX]

Link to that information, please?

Being an "accepted bug" doesn't mean "confirmed bug with incoming fix". It just means that person completed the bug report properly, and it was accepted as an entry.

Ah, you're right. I don't know where the thread went because I can't find it in the Accepted nor the Working as Intended Forums, so I assume it's somewhere out there.

The RNG factor is what makes AST so terrible in 4-man groups. It needs to be mitigated, especially since Spire/Ewer/Spear are almost always a complete waste of Draw in 4-man content. Drawing any one of these cards more than once makes me regret playing AST over WHM/SCH; it's infuriating.

Which is why I suggested buffing the tools that mitigate the RNG rather than just doing away with half of it. Like I said, I'm not against card changes. They do need to feel better. I'm just not sure it's the first thing that needs to be changed or how much of the RNG needs to be mitigated flat-out instead of via the abilities we already have.

[Alahra]

There is not a single class in the game that doesn't have abilities that are useless in dungeons. Dissipate, Eos, Sacred Soil, Asylum, Virus, TP/MP Regen Songs, Silences, Binds, Heavies, any "oh shit" button is generally useless if you are playing correctly. That doesn't mean they have to be changed to feel useful. Cards could feel better, I agree. They just aren't the primary problem with AST getting into progression groups.

You're making the argument that the class's core feature shouldn't need to be useful in one of the game's primary content modes, though. AST's cards not feeling useful is the equivalent of Ninjutsu or Greased Lightning not feeling useful in 4-mans (and MNKs have received adjustments so that Greased Lightning feels better both in 4-man content and 8-man content). For a healer-specific example, imagine if Eos/Selene weren't useful in 4-mans. Don't you think SCHs would find that a little strange? The faerie is a big part of what makes SCH unique, just as the cards are with AST, regardless of content.

I don't understand this statement, because whether or not card buffs feel useful in 4-mans AST is going to be worse than SCH/WHM in end-game.

Are you aware that there can be multiple concerns regarding a class at the same time? How can you not understand that AST needs work for *all* content, not just one narrow slice of the game?

[lirovaldo]

I don't play AST, but i don't need to to see that ewer and spire are both useless.

Why? A decent DRK needs no help to manage his MP. SCH and SMN never had MP issues. WHM seems to be the on a similar level now and, as for BLM, you will most likely mess his rotation.

Spire? Come on. It's only relevant when used on a DRK and only when he's off-tanking, but that's because of some glaring design issues the kit has. Both PLD and WAR can manage just fine (as they should). And it doesn't come even close to what goad brings to the table (not to mention you rely on RNGsus. With cooldowns as long as they are, god forbid you if you burn the card at an incorrect time). Spire doesn't help if your target is low on TP already.

[SuzakuCMX]

You're making the argument that the class's core feature shouldn't need to be useful in one of the game's primary content modes, though.

No, I'm not. I'm saying it's not their primary problem and it doesn't need to be as drastically changed as people are suggesting. They could feel better, yes. You don't always get useless cards in dungeons; the core feature is not useless.

Are you aware that there can be multiple concerns regarding a class at the same time? How can you not understand that AST needs work for *all* content, not just one narrow slice of the game?

I am aware. I am just wondering why everyone is focusing on drastic changes to the card mechanic when the largest issue is that AST cannot heal as well as it needs to be able to to complete end-game content satisfactorily, and that they have a lot of post-50 abilities that feel weak to use and Noct Stance is universally worse than Diurnal. Whenever I stated that, people jump on and start saying that if cards are changed AST will be fine.

[GideonHighmourn]

Which is why I suggested buffing the tools that mitigate the RNG rather than just doing away with half of it.

Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

It\\\\'s not uncommon to do 4-mans without a magic DPS or physical DPS, which makes at least 1 of 6 draws immediately useless. Even one of the magic DPS can\\\\'t really make much use of Ewer; BLM is really the only class in 4-mans that can significantly benefit from it.

Physical DPS in 4-mans also don\\\\'t tend to need more TP/Spear; sometimes a WAR/PLD might, though. It gets a mild pass.

Combined with Shuffle not redrawing the same card, and Royal Road buffs being more effective in a 4-man setting, I could see AST being far more satisfying as an alternative to SCH DPS. It would make smart gameplay far more rewarding, rather than being given the middle finger everytime you draw Ewer/Spire.

[Alahra]

No, I'm not. I'm saying it's not their primary problem and it doesn't need to be as drastically changed as people are suggesting. They could feel better, yes. You don't always get useless cards in dungeons; the core feature is not useless.

I don't feel it needs *drastic* changes at all. There are a number of simple fixes that would make the cards feel useful without retooling the whole system. Ewer and Spire would be more generally useful if they provided resource regeneration instead of cost reduction, for instance. Spear would be better if it worked on already spent cooldowns (as is, it requires knowing that someone hasn't spent their cooldowns, which is a level of communication that's just not generally available in a split second)--but that would also be incredibly powerful, so they might need to rework that one. Bole, Balance, and Arrow are pretty much fine. Beyond that, Shuffle should probably not be able to draw the same card again.

Their healing side needs work too, but nothing drastic is likely to be needed there outside of potency tweaks, though Lightspeed probably needs a rework so it's actually a decent emergency button.

Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

I'm not so sure on this one personally. They'd have to rewrite the class story, so they won't be doing this one in all likelihood. Each of these probably just needs to either provide regeneration or have a secondary buff associated with it. As is, they give one of the better Royal Road options, so they're not completely terrible. They just need slight changes to "feel" better.

[SuzakuCMX]

Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

It\\\\'s not uncommon to do 4-mans without a magic DPS or physical DPS, which makes at least 1 of 6 draws immediately useless. Even one of the magic DPS can\\\\'t really make much use of Ewer; BLM is really the only class in 4-mans that can significantly benefit from it.

I agree. Spire is useless to use on someone in a 4-man anyways since you only run out of TP if your DPS is too low in the first place. I also think Spire/Ewer combo would make sense because you could just combined it into a "Spell and weaponskill costs are reduced by 20%," and 20% chance to draw a card sounds like a good between for 33% and 16.6%. It's unlikely to happen though, because they'd have to either make a new card to replace the 6th or change the storyline entirely to cut out the 6th gate.

Ewer always useful for RR or Spread to save for later.

Spear useful on SMN/SCH/NIN/Tank.

Physical DPS in 4-mans also don\\\\'t tend to need more TP/Spear; sometimes a WAR/PLD might, though. It gets a mild pass.

I agree. I'm really hoping the not reducing already used abilities is a bug and it gets fixed.

Combined with Shuffle not redrawing the same card, and Royal Road buffs being more effective in a 4-man setting I could see AST being far more satisfying as an alternative to SCH DPS.

Yes, but I still feel like AST would fall flat on its face during harder content because of the lack of healing

I don't feel it needs *drastic* changes at all.

I agree. QoL fixes here or there or small changes would go a long way.

There are a number of simple fixes that would make the cards feel useful without retooling the whole system. Ewer and Spire would be more generally useful if they provided resource regeneration instead of cost reduction, for instance. Spear would be better if it worked on already spent cooldowns (as is, it requires knowing that someone hasn't spent their cooldowns, which is a level of communication that's just not generally available in a split second)--but that would also be incredibly powerful, so they might need to rework that one. Bole, Balance, and Arrow are pretty much fine. Beyond that, Shuffle should probably not be able to draw the same card again.

I agree with all of this as well, except that would make Ewer/Spire useless at the beginning of a fight which is more or less the same as it is now (IE: totally useless to use in a lot of situations).

Their healing side needs work too, but nothing drastic is likely to be needed there outside of potency tweaks, though Lightspeed probably needs a rework so it's actually a decent emergency button.

I agree. Their healing only needs potency tweaks, and other than that it's really just making their cards and abilities more useful (Lightspeed, Noct Stance in general, Celestial Opposition are the largest offenders IMO.

[GideonHighmourn]

Yes, but I still feel like AST would fall flat on its face during harder content because of the lack of healing

I meant Spire, not Spear, sorry. On my phone and can't edit. Also, Lore can easily be edited; it's a lousy reason to keep a poorly designed mechanic.

Yes, AST healing does need adjustments in 8-man content, especially in regards to nocturnal stance and cool downs