Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM

[SuzakuCMX]

*snip*

The RNG isn't that bad if you actually make use of RR, Shuffle, and Spread. Or you could just use the card. There's never a time when you NEED a certain buff (except for Ewer if you haven't been using them on the healers). I usually spread my first Ewer, RR my first Spire, and Shuffle a Spire if it comes up after that (fuck you Shuffle giving me Spire/Spear 3 times in a row).


Spear is always useful on: NIN/SMN/SCH > Yourself if you need to pop Lumi Aether or ED/WHM for SoS or Assize or Tetra > Tanks if they need their CDs in the next 20/40 seconds.
Arrow is always useful on: Highest DPS or BLM > Healers > Anyone Else
Spire is always useful on: Tanks (so when you get a TP Song it's for DPS and not for enmity) > NIN/DRG/MCH > other DPS
Ewer is always useful on: Healers or DRK > SMN > just RR it
Bole is useful if: You see a tank buster coming, someone isn't dodging an AoE, otherwise RR it
Balance is always useful: top DPS or whoever has CDs up for burst.

Spread off-CD? Spread Ewer or Spear or Bole if it comes up; save it for when you need it.
Spire? RR it if you don't need it (trash pulls, early on in boss). If you draw it next time, great, 40s of 20% reduced TP costs.
You can Shuffle 1 out of 3 cards.

Also you are throwing out one of these buffs every 30 seconds. Over a long fight that is huge.

[GideonHighmourn]

Also you are throwing out one of these buffs every 30 seconds. Over a long fight that is huge.

That's assuming every buff is always useful, which they aren't always useful. Using RR is almost always a loss in long-term utility, and Shuffle is just as likely to draw the same card as it is a different card.

Again, listing all the utility AST offers on paper (as you have done, again) is great; however, it's rarely as useful as it seems in practice. It doesn't account for RNG, timing, or requiring that specific buff at that time.

I'd be fine with the buffs AST offers, if:

Spire/Ewer combined.
Arrow/Spear combined.
Shuffle can't give the same card.
Reduced Draw-CD on RR.

It would be far more reliable and useful in far more situations than it is currently. This would, too, assume AST's healing is adjusted to match/compete better other healers and Nocturnal Sect was reworked.

[SuzakuCMX]

*snip*

I...literally just listed the ways in which cards are always useful.

It seems to me at this point you are just denying the power of the card buffs. Astrologian doesn't seem to be for you. Like I said, the problem is that their baseline healing is too weak to even compete as a healer unless you are overgeared for the content. The buffs on top of being able to keep the party alive are the draw. And the buffs are strong, given how often you can pump them out.

[GideonHighmourn]

I...literally just listed the ways in which cards are always useful.

No, you didn't. You listed the priority you use for dealing with card RNG in a perfect scenario, but failed to acknowledge that RNG exists.

Your list didn't account for drawing the same card you didn't need previously twice (or more) from either Shuffle or Draw. Every buff is not always useful, period. RNG/cooldowns makes sure of that, along with group composition, specifically in 4 man groups.

What happens when you draw Ewer 6 times in a row with no MDPS? What happens when you draw Spire 4 times with no PDPS? What about drawing the Bole several times when no one is taking significant damage?

Are they always useful then, or will you continue to deny that this happens (due to RNG)?

Yes, you can help manage the RNG factor in perfect scenarios through smart play. However, when RNG doesn't play to your advantage, there is nothing you can do to make your class more useful compared to WHM/SCH.

[SuzakuCMX]

No, you didn't. You listed the priority you use for dealing with card RNG, but failed to acknowledge that RNG exists.

Your list didn't account for drawing the same card you didn't need previously twice from either Shuffle or Draw. Every buff is not always useful, period. RNG/cooldowns makes sure of that, along with group composition, specifically in 4 man groups.

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

You seem to have trouble mitigating RNG. I was trying to help with that. You see "RNG, don't think these buffs are useful, therefore buffs suck" and say AST sucks, instead of trying to see how a card can always be useful.

I can't make it any clearer for you than what I said before, at this point we're just yelling "No I'm right!" back and forth.

[GideonHighmourn]

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

The poster immediately above you stated the exact thing I've been trying to explain more clearly.

You are also ignoring the entire second half of the same post you quoted; I edited it afterwards to make it more clear.

You are still ignoring the RNG like it's perfectly manageable in every possible situation, but it's not. Yes, I know who to use cards on. Yes, I know I can RR/Shuffle them to try again; however, this only mitigates the RNG sometimes, but doesn't control it.

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

You seem to have trouble mitigating RNG. I was trying to help with that. You see "RNG, don't think these buffs are useful, therefore buffs suck" and say AST sucks, instead of trying to see how a card can always be useful.

I can't make it any clearer for you than what I said before, at this point we're just yelling "No I'm right!" back and forth.

It's not a question whether or not it's useful, it's a question of whether or not it's worth dealing with lower healing throughput and trashy cooldowns for something as marginal as a slight TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage. It is illusion of strategy if survivability increase is 0.01%.

Either make the cards so good and so controllable they actually make a difference (as opposed to "huh, that's cool" format they have now) or revamp the baseline healing ability to the point it doesn't become a burden.

[SuzakuCMX]

It's not a question whether or not it's useful, it's a question of whether or not it's worth dealing with lower healing throughput and trashy cooldowns

Which is why I'm saying focus on buffing their healing and CDs and not their cards

TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage.

AST is fine in everything but the end raids, which is where TP and MP management is an issue. Which is when you want those cards.

As for the damage reduction, I doubt SE has balanced any fights on 10% Damage Reduction from an RNG card, which means Bole is just making the healers and the tanks breathe easier when you draw it.

As I am repeating for at least the 3rd time in this thread, AST are healers first and buffs are icing. They currently cannot compete on a basic healing level and that is the problem.

It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful."

No, there isn't. Useful means "able to be used," as opposed to "unable to be used," as in there is no point in that card.

Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run.

Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.

[lirovaldo]

I don't play AST, but i don't need to to see that ewer and spire are both useless.

Why? A decent DRK needs no help to manage his MP. SCH and SMN never had MP issues. WHM seems to be the on a similar level now and, as for BLM, you will most likely mess his rotation.

Spire? Come on. It's only relevant when used on a DRK and only when he's off-tanking, but that's because of some glaring design issues the kit has. Both PLD and WAR can manage just fine (as they should). And it doesn't come even close to what goad brings to the table (not to mention you rely on RNGsus. With cooldowns as long as they are, god forbid you if you burn the card at an incorrect time). Spire doesn't help if your target is low on TP already.

[Rewind]

The buffs on top of being able to keep the party alive are the draw. And the buffs are strong, given how often you can pump them out.

The cards give the illusion of strategy. In theory I know what card I want to draw and when I want to utalise them but there are times I draw the wrong card at the wrong time and I feel like SE hasn't given me the opportunity to actually play effectively


This is a copy and paste from my other post but...

Take Ravana extreme. Imagine you go into the fight for the first time. Whilst you’ve watched a couple of videos and read the strat, there are things you only begin to understand when experiencing the fight. For example, there are significant periods of ‘down time’ in this fight where Ravana leaves the arena. Unless you are fully prepared with the timings of these abilities you are most likely going to waste your buff times – there were plenty of times where I could have wasted an spear/arrow(royal road) + balance combo (when RNG was nice) without realising that the DPS couldn’t actually DPS for the next 40 seconds.

This makes AST significantly weaker than both WHM and SCH. Selene own her own accord has the ability to consistently roll buffs on the raid – Whilst you may lose half a speed or spell buff due to mechanics, there will be opportunity to benefit from this buff again. In comparison, there is a chance that AST may never roll balance again for the remainder of that encounter. A WHM doesn't need to buff per say but has the ability to 'save the raid' with strong heals through unpredictable damage and abilities.

What SE need to do is give more options for cards which include (but are not limited to)

• Allowing Royal Road to stack up to 3 (in combat only!)
• Allowing spread to hold up to three unique cards
• Shuffle cannot draw the same card
• (QoL) Fast discard option which reduces next draw CD by 15 seconds