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  1. #1161
    Player
    Dante_V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    872
    Character
    Dante Venarra
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    I love the way the ninja plays. Have had zero issues so far. Looking forward to actual challenging content in Alexander.

    Neverreap is painfully easy to maintain the rotation on so long as you avoid the twisters. And while I do agree the rotation is "locked in" for long single target fights this is really no different than the dragoon or monk. Armor crush extension allows for a lot more leniency (and dps) in multi target situations and those 1000+ parses are oh so yummy.

    At first I hated the perfect dodge change. Perfect dodge was something I adored and could use it to completely avoid knock back in t9 to maintain dps on nael or avoid earth shakers and such. But after experimenting with it more I like it the new way better. It works better as a times defensive buff than a long cool down one time use dodge IMO.

    The only changes I want at this point are

    Dream within a dream buffed to 150 potency each attack.

    And for duality to allow crits.
    (2)

  2. #1162
    Player
    Korashy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    109
    Character
    Korashy Trillian
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 60
    What's funny if you have an AST that gives you haste card, your GCD goes down to 1.8 second with Huton and no (very low) skillspeed, which gives you a bit more leeway and feels like it's less static (tho I only had a short time to test it). Burns the **** out of your TP though.

    Might be that haste will alleviate some of the problems, but that brings up another issue, that generally due to our high haste (lower GCD) we have a lot less time to make decisions on our buff/debuff management. We also run the risk of encountering issues with clipping and it makes any time we cant dps due to movement or boss ability dodging more painful to our dps.
    (0)
    Last edited by Korashy; 07-03-2015 at 12:14 AM.

  3. #1163
    Player
    silentwindfr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    4,116
    Character
    Florence Leduc
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 90
    hmmm dragoon and monk use only 2 combo and alternate between them, they are far to be same than us.
    they even give help to the monk for the period where it loose him GL, it's not perfect, but on other hand we did get a cycle that getter better and smoother only when other jobs is with us.... serious it's a pain! i don't say that the fight is hard, i say that follow a cycle and do the fight is way too hard, because of decision that need to be changed.

    the fact to add a fourth combo to the ninja now, make the futur quite grim, when they will add new skill in the futur, they can't add more weaponskill without make it impossible to play it. but in honestly it's easy to solve it, by switching dancing edge behind shadowfang. only this will make our cycle less cluncky and more smoother. we will still have 3 combo and alternate between them depending of what we need.

    by the way i'm feeling like you about duality, that the second hit can't critical, ok, but the main skill must be able to critical. from dream into dream i dunno... maybe make the whole act as one skill, making the skill get the three skill critical together or not.
    (0)

  4. #1164
    Player
    Arkenne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,350
    Character
    Aiot O'lein
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 80
    Please understand that by no means NIN is a WAR's pet.
    WARs are our buddies.
    We can give them our burst aggro so they can focus on DPS and keep the Storm's Eye going for us so we can DPS more.
    It is a mutual deal.

    They DPS more as a MT or OT, and we DPS more as a result. And thats good.

    Also, please keep in mind that DRG's rotation is very squared and restricted.
    What happens if you bring 2 DRGs? The Piercing debuff will be up a 100% of the time, right? But will DRG 1 stop excecuting the debuff because DRG 2 already applied it? Nope, because after the debuff weaponskill comes a DoT finisher which they don't want to drop at an individual level. And even less now with their 4th-BotD-extender weaponskill after Chaos Trust.

    If DRG 1 placed the piercing debuff and DRG 2 opted to not use his piercing debuff, DRG 2's DPS will drop in a boss fight. DRGs do not take full adventage of the Piercing debuff duration.

    Now, in the case of MNK, Dragon Kick is more flexible, it allows more Bootshines for 1 of the 2 MNKs.
    This effectively improves the MNK 1's DPS if MNK 2 keeps DK going. But MNKs can only have this luxury if there happens to be another MNK around... and that will not happen often outside situations like Hunts, or 24-man raids. One very rare case.

    In the NINs case, what happens if you bring 2 NINs? The weakest one can keep DE going, and the strongest doesn't need to bother with it. On top of both NIN's DPS going up in a 10% because of the Slashing debuff, NIN 2's DPS will go up by 180 potency per minute by totally suppressing the need of using DE, replacing it by AE. NIN also doesn't need to have another NIN for this scenario to happen, WARs CAN help them with this, and since WAR is a Tank it can naturally happen with more frequency than the MNK scenario. Almost guaranteed that in Hunts or 24-man raids there will be another NIN or WAR keeping this debuff going also.

    NIN can take adventage of the full duration of the Slashing debuff.

    Also DE doesn't only favor WARs, but PLD and DRK are also favored by it. It just so happens that there is a better synergy with WAR out of the 3 Tanks.

    Something I like about the NIN's rotation is that its broken in pieces which you can place however you prefer.
    MU > SF > DE > AE is one. But it can also go
    MU > DE > SF > AE (my favorite)
    DE > SF > MU > AE (to support your party's DPS asap)
    AE > DE > SF > MU (almost the absolute worst)
    SF > DE > AE (for trash)
    and one hell of an adaptability extending on a great deal of situations.

    At least, unlike MNK and DRG, the NIN doesn't have useless GCDs: Feint, Haymaker. Or nearly useless ones: One-Ilm Punch.
    NIN can make full use of their entire toolkit in almost every battle (Yep, even Sneak Attack and Hide have their uses). And AC does have its place in it.
    (3)
    Last edited by Arkenne; 07-03-2015 at 12:46 AM.

  5. #1165
    Player
    Korashy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    109
    Character
    Korashy Trillian
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenne View Post
    snip
    Your example with the dragoons is bad. Both apply the debuff (passively) in their rotation to get to the dot (to maximize) dps. For NIN DE is a direct loss of damage (opportunity cost of not using AE) to keep the debuff up (if there is a warrior). If there was a combo finisher leading out of DE or it refreshed SF or MUT or something, then your example would be the same, but at that point you could delete AE.
    (2)

  6. #1166
    Player
    Arkenne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,350
    Character
    Aiot O'lein
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Korashy View Post
    Your example with the dragoons is bad. Both apply the debuff (passively) in their rotation to get to the dot (to maximize) dps.
    You didn't get the point of the example...
    If there are 2 DRGs the debuff duration will not be used to the fullest, because both DRGs MUST use the skill that applies the debuff.
    They CAN'T skip it. Because they want to use the DoT Weaponskill that comes afterwards, and their new 4th weaponskill as well.

    NIN can totally suppress the use of DE to favor the use of AE instead.
    (3)

  7. #1167
    Player
    Dante_V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    872
    Character
    Dante Venarra
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    From the parses I've done the DE > SF > MU > AE gives me the best results on single target fights for burst openers. SF and MU are the highest potency moves we have and capturing them under TA along with aeolian gives a nice boost to dps (and also almost always pisses off the boss and steal aggro. Lol) In the long run it will even out either way so long as you don't let the timers fall off.

    I think armor crush fits nicely in the rotation. It is by far my favorite ninja move at this point because it let's me cast damage mudras endlessly.
    (1)

  8. #1168
    Player
    Arkenne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,350
    Character
    Aiot O'lein
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Dante_V View Post
    DE > SF > MU > AE gives me the best results
    Yea, DE is pretty aggresive opener, this falls into personal opinion so I won't tell you your option is bad. NIN is cool because of things like this.
    Of all the combos MU is the weakest instant damage, which gives the Tank the most time to build aggro without us stealing the spotlight, which I guess has been the case more often than not with unprepared tanks for you, Shadewalker ftw.

    After all we are comparing a 60 potency GCD against a 150 potency GCD.
    Please take into account that DoT's worth comes with time.
    In a 30 seconds parse, an opener started with MU > SF > DE will do more damage in the short term than DE > SF > MU, because the DoTs will have more active time.
    Besides, DoTs damage isn't affected by DE's slashing debuff, so there is no point in placing DE before MU and SF for their DoT property.
    DoTs then are better on the sooner they are casted on the oponent.

    The reason of why I prefer mine is just for my habit of opening the boss battle with 0 seconds Huton wait time. Since it works for me as a filler for 20 seconds for the real thing.
    (0)
    Last edited by Arkenne; 07-03-2015 at 01:18 AM.

  9. #1169
    Player
    Elizabeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    76
    Character
    Minerva Cho
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 68
    Hey guys, does anyone know an updated and good opener? I want to know if it includes some of the new skills or not.
    (0)

  10. #1170
    Player
    Arkenne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,350
    Character
    Aiot O'lein
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 80
    Entirely up to personal opinion... but again.

    With Huton, Suiton, Kassatsu, Blood for Blood and Internal Release active (pot if you want to add it)
    Whatever comes first » DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > MU(DwD) > SE(Mug) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE[All buffs falls here] or:
    Whatever comes first » DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > SE(DwD) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE(Mug) > MU[All buffs falls here]

    Jug, Duality, Mug and TA/SA animation lock are so short you can actually wind them in just like Mudras.

    You actually have time to wind in 5 GCD in between TA.
    Of course you want to place your strongest weaponskills there, these are SF, MU and AE.
    But these combos are for a total of 6 GCD, for this very reason it is necesary that TA happens right inbetween SE and SF.


    An example off the top of my head with Huton timer on 56 seconds:
    Suiton while closing in > SE(BFB) > GS(Kassatsu) > DE(IR) > SE(TA)[Suiton ends] > SF(Ninjutsu)[Kassatsu ends] > SE(DwD) > GS(Jug + Dual) > AE(Mug) > MU[TA ends] > SE[IR and BFB ends] ~ {Opener aprox time of 18 seconds}

    Another example off the top of my head with Huton timer on 70 seconds:
    Huton while closing in > MU » DE » SF » AE(BFB) > SE(Suiton) > GS(IR) > DE(Kassatsu) > SE(TA)[Suiton ends] > SF(Ninjutsu)[Kassatsu ends] > MU(DwD) > SE(Mug) > GS(Jug + Dual) > AE[TA ends] > SE[BFB + IR ends] ~ {Opener aprox time of 36 seconds}
    (1)
    Last edited by Arkenne; 07-03-2015 at 02:45 AM.

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