The Ninja Superthread

[Arkenne]

Please understand that by no means NIN is a WAR's pet.
WARs are our buddies.
We can give them our burst aggro so they can focus on DPS and keep the Storm's Eye going for us so we can DPS more.
It is a mutual deal.

They DPS more as a MT or OT, and we DPS more as a result. And thats good.

Also, please keep in mind that DRG's rotation is very squared and restricted.
What happens if you bring 2 DRGs? The Piercing debuff will be up a 100% of the time, right? But will DRG 1 stop excecuting the debuff because DRG 2 already applied it? Nope, because after the debuff weaponskill comes a DoT finisher which they don't want to drop at an individual level. And even less now with their 4th-BotD-extender weaponskill after Chaos Trust.

If DRG 1 placed the piercing debuff and DRG 2 opted to not use his piercing debuff, DRG 2's DPS will drop in a boss fight. DRGs do not take full adventage of the Piercing debuff duration.

Now, in the case of MNK, Dragon Kick is more flexible, it allows more Bootshines for 1 of the 2 MNKs.
This effectively improves the MNK 1's DPS if MNK 2 keeps DK going. But MNKs can only have this luxury if there happens to be another MNK around... and that will not happen often outside situations like Hunts, or 24-man raids. One very rare case.

In the NINs case, what happens if you bring 2 NINs? The weakest one can keep DE going, and the strongest doesn't need to bother with it. On top of both NIN's DPS going up in a 10% because of the Slashing debuff, NIN 2's DPS will go up by 180 potency per minute by totally suppressing the need of using DE, replacing it by AE. NIN also doesn't need to have another NIN for this scenario to happen, WARs CAN help them with this, and since WAR is a Tank it can naturally happen with more frequency than the MNK scenario. Almost guaranteed that in Hunts or 24-man raids there will be another NIN or WAR keeping this debuff going also.

NIN can take adventage of the full duration of the Slashing debuff.

Also DE doesn't only favor WARs, but PLD and DRK are also favored by it. It just so happens that there is a better synergy with WAR out of the 3 Tanks.

Something I like about the NIN's rotation is that its broken in pieces which you can place however you prefer.
MU > SF > DE > AE is one. But it can also go
MU > DE > SF > AE (my favorite)
DE > SF > MU > AE (to support your party's DPS asap)
AE > DE > SF > MU (almost the absolute worst)
SF > DE > AE (for trash)
and one hell of an adaptability extending on a great deal of situations.

At least, unlike MNK and DRG, the NIN doesn't have useless GCDs: Feint, Haymaker. Or nearly useless ones: One-Ilm Punch.
NIN can make full use of their entire toolkit in almost every battle (Yep, even Sneak Attack and Hide have their uses). And AC does have its place in it.

[Korashy]

snip

Your example with the dragoons is bad. Both apply the debuff (passively) in their rotation to get to the dot (to maximize) dps. For NIN DE is a direct loss of damage (opportunity cost of not using AE) to keep the debuff up (if there is a warrior). If there was a combo finisher leading out of DE or it refreshed SF or MUT or something, then your example would be the same, but at that point you could delete AE.

[Arkenne]

Your example with the dragoons is bad. Both apply the debuff (passively) in their rotation to get to the dot (to maximize) dps.

You didn't get the point of the example...
If there are 2 DRGs the debuff duration will not be used to the fullest, because both DRGs MUST use the skill that applies the debuff.
They CAN'T skip it. Because they want to use the DoT Weaponskill that comes afterwards, and their new 4th weaponskill as well.

NIN can totally suppress the use of DE to favor the use of AE instead.

[Korashy]

snip

That's the very definition of passively getting it. If ninja would get the DE debuff on GS instead of it being an extra skill THEN it would be the same thing. Constantly (passively) applied during your rotation because you need to use that skill to access higher tier combos.

The fact that if you have 2 NIN only one has to do DE is irrelevant. The class should be able to do well on it's own, with the same rotation without dependence on composition.

Pierce Debuff also helps BRD and MECH, but I guarantee you if either class could do it themselves they would alter their rotation around it, and revert back to not doing it if there is a DRG (who passively applies) it, which is the boat NIN is in now.

If my composition doesn't include a Warrior or another NIN (who I can make DE slave), I'm being punished.

[Arkenne]

Missing the point a 2rd time

For some reason there is also a daily limit to the number of posts one can make in these forums... so I would rather not circle around this too much...

Tell me then, what gain is there on having 2 DRGs in a dungeon in relation to the passibly applied Piercing debuff?
Is there any difference at all in either of the 2 DRG's rotations? Does it change in the minimal at all? Does DRG 1 stop using the Piercing debuff in favor of a stronger skill because DRG 2 is using and mantaining it?

What would happen in the scenario of having a WAR and a NIN together and SG were to have the DE effect? Will WAR ever bother applying Storm's Eye? Will there be any difference in DPS for the NIN if there was another NIN around and GS gave the DE effect? Will the DE effect have any point in having a timer even?

You do realize that if GS had the DE effect, DE would have something we would desire to use also, and hence restrict the use of AE and AC even more as a result than it is now, right? Not gonna say you are being serious with the GS having the DE effect, but if it were to be like that, it would be the same that happens for DRGs.

There would be nothing to gain from having 2 NINs and it would hurt the relationship with WAR.

As it is right now, if DE/StE is being sustained by someone else, you can input more AEs until DE/StE timer is dropped for any reason. Whereas DRG can't skip the use of their Piercing debuff skill even if they wanted to cuz that results in a DPS loss. So they have to use it for the sake of using it if there is more than one DRG attacking the same target. They don't have an option. Thats what I meant by "squared and restricted". Of course Im talking of boss battle scenarios.

About the lack of a WAR or 2nd NIN on your static: You aren't being punished for not having them. If you were to have one you would be rewarded.
What I can tell is that you are looking at a glass with water and think of it as half empty. Try to look at it as half full instead.

Sorry if I sounded a bit rude, tho :/

[Korashy]

Tell me then, what gain is there on having 2 DRGs in a dungeon in relation to the passibly applied Piercing debuff?

That's the whole point, they each use it because it let's them access something else that is high damage (hence why both use it), while a NIN will ideally never use DE, unless there is no Warrior. The Warrior uses Storms Eye because it's his second highest damage skill.

There would be nothing to gain from having 2 NINs and it would hurt the relationship with WAR.

Yes. Because we can actually do the debuff ourselves. BRD likes DRG because DRG gives BRD more dmg (something that doesn't change the way they either class plays, it just passively exists for them). NIN likes WAR because it gives NIN more dmg, by having a huge impact on my rotation. I dislike that.

[Arkenne]

The reasons

... Nevermind...

I can only agree with Allyrion that DE might be hogging the priority in the rotation a bit much in contrast to AE and AC.
Something to extend the DE duration could help alleviate this and let the 123 lovers 123 all day =-= (yes, being a bit salty, sorry).

Examples that comes to mind:
- Increasing DE duration to 30 seconds.
- Making AE fully refresh DE duration with -3 seconds. (20, 17, 14 and so on)
- Making SE and GS extend DE effect for +1 second.