The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Krissey]

Honestly it's a weird mentality from vanilla WoW, and probably beyond, where certain classes have the "privilege" of higher utlity and thus have a "hybrid tax", the hybrid of support (heals, buffs, what-have-you) and DPS, rather than a "pure" DPS with little to no utility. Reason is because the utility is an "advantage" in survival, etc..

However I don't know WHY this mindset in developers ever happened...

[Zamii]

However I don't know WHY this mindset in developers ever happened...

simple answer; if all classes did the same dps but some had more utility than others, what do you think players would do?

the current content in the game is extremely limited, and doesnt showcase any of the classes well honestly, both ravana and bismark have extremely high levels of downtime and even more movement, this puts anyone with a cast bar attached to their skills in a difficult possition, the difference however, casters have been used to dealing with this for a LONG time, and have practiced how to slide cast, etc, bards and machinists on the other hand generally arnt even familiar with the concept of slide casting, let alone proficient at it.

[RiceisNice]

...

The problem isn't that MCH or Bards do not how to slidecast( they can actually do this more efficently since they have a 1.5 cast time). [I]It's the fact that their cast time abilities amount to the same, if not a damage loss compared to dpsing without it.[/I

Their utility is also debatable at best. Because the EX primals have downtimes, that means TP regen isn't needed. It won't ever be needed unless you have a punching bag boss like T8 or T11. MP regen is never needed unless the fight has gone south or it's a progression fight... or there's excessive healing going on.

[Morzy]

I agree. This should be done away with.

[Ryaz]

The most broken thing about MCH is the ugly ass law armor they get. I got my Asura chest piece today and glammed it right away. My guy's like a sniper dude-- the sweater, pants and gloves from Fractal with a pair of goggles. Very minimalist. Working on getting better boots. I just wish we could dye dungeon gear. I think a sniper type would prefer black over puke green.

But seriously, back on topic-- I've actually grown used to using Gauss barrel. Yes, I feel restricted more when I use it, which is the point. The problem is the dps loss. Buff GB and fix our RNG issues (I literally got one proc on Split Shot during first and last fights of my last fractal when Reload was on cooldown) and I think we'd be fine. It's fun seeing those 4k Ricochet Crits.

[Viviza]

Jobs are going to be balanced around desirability. If something is wanted, it is doing well. If it is doing well, it doesn't need buffs (though quality of life changes are always nice).

Bards were given reduced damage back in 2.0(?) because raids were stacking bards when they had equivalent damage, and were desirable even with reduced damage. I don't think this basic assertion has changed. Every raid group is still going to pack a bard or mechanist.

These hypothetical situations where no one runs out of tp/mp that you see on the forums don't actually happen in real raids. People make mistakes. Healers get taxed and run out of mp. Long phases happen where melee, and especially tanks, run out of tp. And if nothing else, requiem is fantastic and desired, while bard mobility uniquely frees them to handle mechanics.

[Alchemii]

Jobs are going to be balanced around desirability. If something is wanted, it is doing well. If it is doing well, it doesn't need buffs (though quality of life changes are always nice).

Bards were given reduced damage back in 2.0(?) because raids were stacking bards when they had equivalent damage, and were desirable even with reduced damage. I don't think this basic assertion has changed. Every raid group is still going to pack a bard or mechanist.

These hypothetical situations where no one runs out of tp/mp that you see on the forums don't actually happen in real raids. People make mistakes. Healers get taxed and run out of mp. Long phases happen where melee, and especially tanks, run out of tp. And if nothing else, requiem is fantastic and desired, while bard mobility uniquely frees them to handle mechanics.

Yes, brds will stil have a very firm grip on that position in a party, this much is not in question, mch on the other hand not so much. Now don't get me wrong, we'll probably see a number of groups run a mch in the party, but I got this feeling that many of those group will doing it for bragging points. "Oh hey look at us, we cleared Alex EX/Sav while having a mch in a party" and unless that MCH is the FFXIV equivalent of RoboCop, they will be seen as more of a hindrance to the party, no matter how untrue it might be.

Though this could just be me having very little faith in people seeing as how we're already seeing MCH kicked from a party just for being MCH.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't think this basic assertion has changed.

Oh, it's changed, alright. A drop from ~-10% on dummies and largely matching damage in actual play (see these parses) to -20% at best is HUGE.

Also going to quote myself (again) regarding classifying BRD/MCH as "support":

Simple answers:

1. Because the duty finder doesn't recognize 'support' as its own role. The last thing you want is to get four supports instead of three DPS and a support because nothing else showed up.

2. Because player expectations are already set. Most players expect both jobs to be able to *deal damage*. Furthermore, thematically speaking, there is zero replacement for someone who likes archery or guns and wants to deal damage at the same time, hence you would undoubtedly lose the support (heh) of all of those players if you dropped them into a full support role.

3. Because you would then need to design raids and possibly even dungeons to REQUIRE BRDs/MCHs or else they get dropped from parties entirely for more damage dealers. Remember that their auras scale on the number of players they are affecting, and are thus considerably less useful in 4-mans.

4. Because we only have two jobs that would actually qualify for this "support" role, which would result in a severely underpopulated role should they add 'support' to all parties and raids as dedicated slots of their own. They would need to, *at a minimum*, add another job that qualifies as 'support' to maintain the balance.

[Dante_V]

The problem isn't that MCH or Bards do not how to slidecast( they can actually do this more efficently since they have a 1.5 cast time). [I]It's the fact that their cast time abilities amount to the same, if not a damage loss compared to dpsing without it.[/I

Their utility is also debatable at best. Because the EX primals have downtimes, that means TP regen isn't needed. It won't ever be needed unless you have a punching bag boss like T8 or T11. MP regen is never needed unless the fight has gone south or it's a progression fight... or there's excessive healing going on.

This is objectively false at level 60. The parses i've seen have shown a 100+ dps increase from WM on tests if not more. I will give you that it doesn't really take hold until you hit 60 and have all of your abilities but at end game saying WM makes no difference is just not true.

As far as the utility in exchange for DPS "problem", it's a balancing thing and it has nothing to do with "whats needed", it has to do with "whats available and beneficial." Bards and machinists have a pretty secure spot in raids right now and saying they have to "design raids around needing these utilities in order for them to be useful" isn't really true either. The other classes are designed around needing these utilities by nature of their resource use and consumption, it has nothing to do with the raids although raids is where we see the largest benefit from utilities. This has more to do with dungeon and story content being face roll easy than having to do with a lack of necessity on the part of the bard.

I also want to point out that a single players parse is hardly a litmus for determining anything. Parses need to be taken into account from multiple players in various situations to understand the exact differences in damage output. At this point various parses have been put up on reddit showing a dps increase of 100 or more between WM on and off in various situations. On top of this square is addressing issues regarding it implementation.

But lets be real here if you are asking for a Bard to have a potential dps output of a dragoon you are kidding yourself. It just isn't going to happen and the reason is balancing.

[RiceisNice]

...

Well before I dive in...keep in mind I was also referring to MCH, which is suffering from the bolded statement.

As far as raids are concerned, all classes bring some sort of utility, some to varying effectiveness. I agree that mp/tp is probably more useful out of the bunch, it's a godsend for progression. But they already attach a damage penalty to it for using those abilities anyway, you don't need to overcompensate with low inherent dps (which again may not be the case for bard, but it's definitely for MCH between those two). A raid should not be designed around needing utilties, that I agree. But at the same token, it won't make a class more desirable if their performance outside of said utility is under. If you don't need tp/mp song for EX primal or god forbid alex savage, why would you bring a BRD/MCH over a SMN?

I don't think I need to comment on parses if we're both inline with my context of MCH's GB, and not just exclusively bard's WM.

But again, I was talking in mostly reference to MCH if you thought I was talking about bard dps being low. I played bard throughout FCoB and I was fine with being behind the DRG or MNKs in dps (which wasn't that big of a difference anyway, 50-150 at the most depending on circumstances), but I'm not fine when my direct counterpart (that is, my MCH compared to BRD) is better than me in every area, including both dps and tp/mp regen on demand.