The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Zyrusticae]

I don't think this basic assertion has changed.

Oh, it's changed, alright. A drop from ~-10% on dummies and largely matching damage in actual play (see these parses) to -20% at best is HUGE.

Also going to quote myself (again) regarding classifying BRD/MCH as "support":

Simple answers:

1. Because the duty finder doesn't recognize 'support' as its own role. The last thing you want is to get four supports instead of three DPS and a support because nothing else showed up.

2. Because player expectations are already set. Most players expect both jobs to be able to *deal damage*. Furthermore, thematically speaking, there is zero replacement for someone who likes archery or guns and wants to deal damage at the same time, hence you would undoubtedly lose the support (heh) of all of those players if you dropped them into a full support role.

3. Because you would then need to design raids and possibly even dungeons to REQUIRE BRDs/MCHs or else they get dropped from parties entirely for more damage dealers. Remember that their auras scale on the number of players they are affecting, and are thus considerably less useful in 4-mans.

4. Because we only have two jobs that would actually qualify for this "support" role, which would result in a severely underpopulated role should they add 'support' to all parties and raids as dedicated slots of their own. They would need to, *at a minimum*, add another job that qualifies as 'support' to maintain the balance.

[Viviza]

Oh, it's changed, alright. A drop from ~-10% on dummies and largely matching damage in actual play (see these parses) to -20% at best is HUGE.

Also going to quote myself (again) regarding classifying BRD/MCH as "support":

I don't think this actually refuted anything I said. I didn't say support. I didn't cite specific numbers. I was speaking of general balance philosophy.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't think this actually refuted anything I said. I didn't say support. I didn't cite specific numbers. I was speaking of general balance philosophy.

You said people are going to still be picking BRD/MCH based entirely off of previous experiences in ARR.

My problem with that statement is that the situation has changed, in more ways than one, making that statement essentially groundless.

If we want to prevent things from degrading, we have to at least maintain the sort of gap that was present in ARR, and not the much bigger gap we're seeing in Heavensward.

This is all besides the point that the reduction in player satisfaction with these two jobs can and probably will result in dramatically fewer players playing those jobs, resulting in a shortage, and that's a serious issue if they actually do end up being required for their auras.

And all of this is besides the point that raiding is not the only thing worth being concerned about here. The state of these two jobs affects other content as well, and if they don't bring anything to the table in any given encounter, there is a huge incentive to simply drop the two jobs in favor of something that deals damage (i.e. SMN).

[Viviza]

This is all besides the point that the reduction in player satisfaction with these two jobs can and probably will result in dramatically fewer players playing those jobs, resulting in a shortage, and that's a serious issue if they actually do end up being required for their auras.

How can you assert this?

The forums are a good place to talk but a poor representation of how a majority of people feel about something. I've seen complaints here about every job, to various degrees, as if their jobs have been destroyed. Bards definitely have some issues, and even brought about a dev response, so those are being addressed, especially the 'feel' of how the job plays.

So, asserting that things have changed is fair, but I think it may be premature to cite figures prior to raids, especially that of player reaction. Bards were a very popular job in ARR and I haven't heard anything about them being cut away. People want to feel useful and they want to feel wanted, and bards are still both.