The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[RiceisNice]

...

The problem isn't that MCH or Bards do not how to slidecast( they can actually do this more efficently since they have a 1.5 cast time). [I]It's the fact that their cast time abilities amount to the same, if not a damage loss compared to dpsing without it.[/I

Their utility is also debatable at best. Because the EX primals have downtimes, that means TP regen isn't needed. It won't ever be needed unless you have a punching bag boss like T8 or T11. MP regen is never needed unless the fight has gone south or it's a progression fight... or there's excessive healing going on.

[Dante_V]

The problem isn't that MCH or Bards do not how to slidecast( they can actually do this more efficently since they have a 1.5 cast time). [I]It's the fact that their cast time abilities amount to the same, if not a damage loss compared to dpsing without it.[/I

Their utility is also debatable at best. Because the EX primals have downtimes, that means TP regen isn't needed. It won't ever be needed unless you have a punching bag boss like T8 or T11. MP regen is never needed unless the fight has gone south or it's a progression fight... or there's excessive healing going on.

This is objectively false at level 60. The parses i've seen have shown a 100+ dps increase from WM on tests if not more. I will give you that it doesn't really take hold until you hit 60 and have all of your abilities but at end game saying WM makes no difference is just not true.

As far as the utility in exchange for DPS "problem", it's a balancing thing and it has nothing to do with "whats needed", it has to do with "whats available and beneficial." Bards and machinists have a pretty secure spot in raids right now and saying they have to "design raids around needing these utilities in order for them to be useful" isn't really true either. The other classes are designed around needing these utilities by nature of their resource use and consumption, it has nothing to do with the raids although raids is where we see the largest benefit from utilities. This has more to do with dungeon and story content being face roll easy than having to do with a lack of necessity on the part of the bard.

I also want to point out that a single players parse is hardly a litmus for determining anything. Parses need to be taken into account from multiple players in various situations to understand the exact differences in damage output. At this point various parses have been put up on reddit showing a dps increase of 100 or more between WM on and off in various situations. On top of this square is addressing issues regarding it implementation.

But lets be real here if you are asking for a Bard to have a potential dps output of a dragoon you are kidding yourself. It just isn't going to happen and the reason is balancing.

[RiceisNice]

...

Well before I dive in...keep in mind I was also referring to MCH, which is suffering from the bolded statement.

As far as raids are concerned, all classes bring some sort of utility, some to varying effectiveness. I agree that mp/tp is probably more useful out of the bunch, it's a godsend for progression. But they already attach a damage penalty to it for using those abilities anyway, you don't need to overcompensate with low inherent dps (which again may not be the case for bard, but it's definitely for MCH between those two). A raid should not be designed around needing utilties, that I agree. But at the same token, it won't make a class more desirable if their performance outside of said utility is under. If you don't need tp/mp song for EX primal or god forbid alex savage, why would you bring a BRD/MCH over a SMN?

I don't think I need to comment on parses if we're both inline with my context of MCH's GB, and not just exclusively bard's WM.

But again, I was talking in mostly reference to MCH if you thought I was talking about bard dps being low. I played bard throughout FCoB and I was fine with being behind the DRG or MNKs in dps (which wasn't that big of a difference anyway, 50-150 at the most depending on circumstances), but I'm not fine when my direct counterpart (that is, my MCH compared to BRD) is better than me in every area, including both dps and tp/mp regen on demand.

[Xyth]

Snip.

You state that BRD and MCH are DESIGNED for support roles, and that it's a balance issue. They shouldn't be on par with NIN/DRG/MNK, and all of us BRDs agrees on that. However, we all queue as a DPS, and if a 4-Man dungeon queued up 2 BRDs, who are they supporting, each other? Their damage is so low right now, that even a WHM and SCH is right at their level.

Might as well have 1 Tank, and have 3 healers, cause their damage output is just as strong as a BRD.

[Zyrusticae]

Bards and machinists have a pretty secure spot in raids right now [...]

Uh, based on what, exactly? Last I checked MCHs are getting excluded from Primal EX runs, and those don't even have super-difficult DPS checks. It's only going to get worse when Alexander Savage gets released.

Best to nip that problem in the bud before the community gets too toxic.

Also, absolutely none of that addresses issues with the Duty Finder pulling together parties full of support and not DPS. Doesn't matter if the content is still clearable or not, what matters is what effect it has on the community at large. You don't want people to be moaning and complaining every time a MCH appears in the party (let alone votekicking them out simply by virtue of not dealing enough damage).

[Sessurea]

Ex primals =/= raids. They have tons of downtime where physical dps can regen tp and healers can regen mana. "anything works" in extreme primals.

Alex savage will be the exact opposite lol... it will probably have instances where the raid is getting obliterated and the majority of healers wont be able to keep their mp afloat. sure mr pro whm coming to forum who cleared fcob with ilvl 130 and echo will tell u he didn't need mana song, but on progression this is not the case. Then theres tp issues in long fights with no downtime. No nin doesn't cover because guess who has to provide tp for the nin? And this is worse during early stages of progression because less damage = longer fight = larger degree of tp starvation.

And come on, who cares about DF. make a blm for it like everyone else did back in myth flox days.

If we want to prevent things from degrading, we have to at least maintain the sort of gap that was present in ARR, and not the much bigger gap we're seeing in Heavensward.

We need the raids for that. Non striking dummy situations will destroy these amazing 1.2k dps parses we hear about. Unless we are dealing with mechanics, brd/mcn dps will be affected the least. I can see us getting a smallll buff, but nothing that will really offset how things currently are.

[XgungraveX]

snip

but every physical dps has invigorate tho which is on a 2 min cd i never see a dps ask for a tp gen out outside of a tank,which nin just goad them. let be honest here the only time i see called 98% is mostly mp regen that only
A healer is casting Resurrection on down players and mana is runs dry fast
b casting holy or flare

[Zyrusticae]

And come on, who cares about DF. make a blm for it like everyone else did back in myth flox days.

Really?

First of all, you're wrong. SMN is the premier DF job nowadays.

Secondly, I don't freakin' play casters and I have zero interest in switching jobs purely to speedrun, so you can take that 'tip' and stick it where the sun don't shine.

We need the raids for that. Non striking dummy situations will destroy these amazing 1.2k dps parses we hear about. Unless we are dealing with mechanics, brd/mcn dps will be affected the least. I can see us getting a smallll buff, but nothing that will really offset how things currently are.

Sure, whatever. Too bad MCHs will still be getting kicked out when the brokenness of the job becomes extremely apparent.

[aabe]

,

dummies vs raids, raids will drop people's overall damage sure, dummy DPS has never been a good standard, but melee dps (and pretty much the rest) take a dump all over BRD's dps with full uptime on a dummy, they will take a dump on BRD dps in any fight because they're simply putting out more damage during their uptime.
A fight has to be terribly stacked against melee for BRDs to get close, any downtime you might have for mechanics is generally 1 GCD and that is not going to cut down the giant dps gap between BRD and DRG right now