The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Xyth]

Snip.

You state that BRD and MCH are DESIGNED for support roles, and that it's a balance issue. They shouldn't be on par with NIN/DRG/MNK, and all of us BRDs agrees on that. However, we all queue as a DPS, and if a 4-Man dungeon queued up 2 BRDs, who are they supporting, each other? Their damage is so low right now, that even a WHM and SCH is right at their level.

Might as well have 1 Tank, and have 3 healers, cause their damage output is just as strong as a BRD.

[Zyrusticae]

Bards and machinists have a pretty secure spot in raids right now [...]

Uh, based on what, exactly? Last I checked MCHs are getting excluded from Primal EX runs, and those don't even have super-difficult DPS checks. It's only going to get worse when Alexander Savage gets released.

Best to nip that problem in the bud before the community gets too toxic.

Also, absolutely none of that addresses issues with the Duty Finder pulling together parties full of support and not DPS. Doesn't matter if the content is still clearable or not, what matters is what effect it has on the community at large. You don't want people to be moaning and complaining every time a MCH appears in the party (let alone votekicking them out simply by virtue of not dealing enough damage).

[Viviza]

Oh, it's changed, alright. A drop from ~-10% on dummies and largely matching damage in actual play (see these parses) to -20% at best is HUGE.

Also going to quote myself (again) regarding classifying BRD/MCH as "support":

I don't think this actually refuted anything I said. I didn't say support. I didn't cite specific numbers. I was speaking of general balance philosophy.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't think this actually refuted anything I said. I didn't say support. I didn't cite specific numbers. I was speaking of general balance philosophy.

You said people are going to still be picking BRD/MCH based entirely off of previous experiences in ARR.

My problem with that statement is that the situation has changed, in more ways than one, making that statement essentially groundless.

If we want to prevent things from degrading, we have to at least maintain the sort of gap that was present in ARR, and not the much bigger gap we're seeing in Heavensward.

This is all besides the point that the reduction in player satisfaction with these two jobs can and probably will result in dramatically fewer players playing those jobs, resulting in a shortage, and that's a serious issue if they actually do end up being required for their auras.

And all of this is besides the point that raiding is not the only thing worth being concerned about here. The state of these two jobs affects other content as well, and if they don't bring anything to the table in any given encounter, there is a huge incentive to simply drop the two jobs in favor of something that deals damage (i.e. SMN).

[Civilrant]

How bout SE gives us Ranger and we'll all just trade in our bards and machinists?

[Viviza]

This is all besides the point that the reduction in player satisfaction with these two jobs can and probably will result in dramatically fewer players playing those jobs, resulting in a shortage, and that's a serious issue if they actually do end up being required for their auras.

How can you assert this?

The forums are a good place to talk but a poor representation of how a majority of people feel about something. I've seen complaints here about every job, to various degrees, as if their jobs have been destroyed. Bards definitely have some issues, and even brought about a dev response, so those are being addressed, especially the 'feel' of how the job plays.

So, asserting that things have changed is fair, but I think it may be premature to cite figures prior to raids, especially that of player reaction. Bards were a very popular job in ARR and I haven't heard anything about them being cut away. People want to feel useful and they want to feel wanted, and bards are still both.

[SovereignAegis]

How bout SE gives us Ranger and we'll all just trade in our bards and machinists?

I would do this, play something similar to an ADC and just wreck stuff. I am sick of support ranged, I want some pewpew.

[LoreChief]

WoW did away with "hybrid taxes" years ago because it was a stupid idea.

If you aren't actively using TP/MP regen, then you should not have to suffer a damage penalty at all. If you are in WM/GB stance, where you have cast times, low mobility AND are also presently not using TP/MP ballads, you should be doing just as much potential damage as any other DPS class.

I am also for the idea of extending the utility of every other class in the game. I don't see why it should be up to the ranged DPS to carry the burden of bringing value to the party.

[Garan]

I feel like the OPs point has been lost in most of the posts I see here. Bard is already HEAVILY penalized for singing support songs in every situation. 15% DPS loss is the price we pay every time we "Support" the party. Why is there any need for them to be further penalized?

[CGMidlander]

I feel like the OPs point has been lost in most of the posts I see here. Bard is already HEAVILY penalized for singing support songs in every situation. 20% DPS loss is the price we pay every time we "Support" the party. Why is there any need for them to be further penalized?

The song damage hit was changed to 15% with Heavensward