Estinien (spoilers)

[Kauthryn]

I wouldn't consider the Archbishop to be 'evil'. He was doing what he felt was necessary to protect his people - which is understandable given how much of a threat Nidhogg was and how future generations were being punished for something that happened long ago. He was misguided and needed to be dealt with, yes - but people have a habit of seeing morally grey situations in black or white.

No, he's evil.
His pretense may have been morally grey, that to unleash the truth would shatter the society as they knew it (which seems false), but his motives and the outcome were both evil. He was just a bad guy.

[Dalvy]

actually, about Nidhogg needing to be put down... Even neutral Midgardsormr lamented that his son was lost to his rage. Nidhogg lost his senses centuries ago, and the only hope midgy has of seeing his boy regain his senses is if Estinien fights for control.

Also disappointed that we fell into the typical Japanese plot of "organized church is evil". I was holding out for the pope being decent, knowing about the Ascian plans. The fact that his group was able to trick Lahabrea and Igeyorhm at all says something.

[Allyrion]

Also disappointed that we fell into the typical Japanese plot of "organized church is evil". I was holding out for the pope being decent, knowing about the Ascian plans. The fact that his group was able to trick Lahabrea and Igeyorhm at all says something.

I was glad to see that FF trope.
But moreover, I was ready to be disappointed because I thought he would try to play the Ascians but get outplayed himself.

That didn't happen. He actually did turn the tables.
Made him a worthy enemy.

It was very well done.
I never expected to be happy the Archbishop showed up and also wanting to put him down in equal measures.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I was glad to see that FF trope.
But moreover, I was ready to be disappointed because I thought he would try to play the Ascians but get outplayed himself.

That didn't happen. He actually did turn the tables.
Made him a worthy enemy.

It was very well done.
I never expected to be happy the Archbishop showed up and also wanting to put him down in equal measures.

What kept "The Knights of the Round" from being a worth enemy is that my all 1st timer group PWNed them in like 5 minutes. THAT was anti climactic. At least when I did Ultima with all new 50s fresh into our AF gear it was still mildly challenging. Here's hoping there a Yoshi <Clears throat> I mean wandering Minstrel quest later that makes it a real challenge.

Was kinda shocked to see Lahabrea go down like that though. Was almost certain he'd like, possess Thordin or something after he was consumed.

As for Nidhogg, I think Midguardsormir's lamentation over his madness proves just how desperately he needs to be put down for good. Only this time we need to aim for his Heart instead of his Eyes.

[Fenral]

The church isn't always evil in JRPGs. *Gesticulates wildly towards Dragon Quiest*

[Cilia]

The church isn't always evil in JRPGs. *Gesticulates wildly towards Dragon Quiest*

I'll trust ya, but I can't think of one where a church plays a major role in the story and isn't evil (or at least deceptive).

Lessee... Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XIV, Tales of Symphonia, Tales of the Abyss... probably more, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

[FrejyaAthenes]

To be fair, here it's less "The church is evil" and more "The church is knowingly witholding the truth to keep the land from falling into chaos." Look at Thordan's conversation with Aymeric. It wasn't "The church needs to keep power" but rather "Ishgard needs order."

[Kaiser-Ace]

I'll trust ya, but I can't think of one where a church plays a major role in the story and isn't evil (or at least deceptive).

Lessee... Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XIV, Tales of Symphonia, Tales of the Abyss... probably more, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

More specifically Every large religious orginization in all of Final Fantasy history has always been Lawful Evil (Yevon, The Sanctum , The Church of Glabados, etc) with several note worthy members being Chaotic Evil in their own right. (Seymour Guado, Barthandelus, Marcel Funebris, ect)

So The Ishguardian Orthodox Church and Thordin VII are but another example to the eternal constant in the Final Fantasy Multiverse that Churches are misguided at best to outright evil at worst.

[TheCount]

To be fair, here it's less "The church is evil" and more "The church is knowingly witholding the truth to keep the land from falling into chaos." Look at Thordan's conversation with Aymeric. It wasn't "The church needs to keep power" but rather "Ishgard needs order."

As much as I agree with Thordan's stance against the whole dragon issue and unjust accounting of guilt upon every generation forever from them keep in mind that "X needs order" is an argument often given by the Garleans, whom are not at all opposed to some genocide if it means it serves their view of the greater good. And the Garleans are considered not so very nice either.

[Frederick22]

Changing subject and returning to Estinien, who here think he was one of the best characters on Heavensward?
On the past there was a lot of topis in the forums on judging our characters for being a guy that was aleays folloeing orders and wast feeling emotions. Well SE did notice this and change things. Estinien was the kind og guy that teaches how to make the best destion, event if the outcome ist good. He really put like things rights and help us to become someone more like less guy that follows orders and become more impotant, after he was the kind of "lonely warrior! xD. Did anyone feel this?