Estinien (spoilers)

[Grayve]

Oh, right... So, was it ever explained where those wards came from, and what powered them? I wonder what else is hiding in the vaults of the Holy See.

[Ayuhra]

I don't have an in depth response to this.

I was more sad at the deaths of Ysayle and Haurchefant (though I had a suspicion his days were numbered, likeable characters just don't make it in these games) than I was at the turning of Estinien. Then again, the turning of Estinien is just the beginning of a new story

I did find it amusing how, after consuming Estinien, Nidhogg just looks at you like "'Sup" and flies away.

[Grayve]

Honestly, the death of the thief girl in the slums hit me hard, to... She was just a footnote, but that just made it sadder. Even Haurcuefant got to die saving his best bro.... That's all a knight can hope for.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I called the Archbishop being evil from day one. The only thing I was ever wrong about (besides having Nighog's and Hraysvelger's roles backwards, and never realised that the Dragoons Job Crystal wasn't Nidhogg's actual Eye) was that The Holy See wasn't in league with Garlemauld.

So the truth finally came out that Thorden VII was indeed the typical SE head priest that turns out to be the Dictator, Monarch, and all around shit pot stirrer not unlike Seymor Guado from FF10. So I'll personally be really happy after we lay waste to the current Ishgaurdian society sociaty by kicking the church out of power.

Though I've not cleared past lvl59 yet, yea I kinda see where our fight with Throden "I'm an Ascaian Stooge" VII is headed. And it wont end well for him.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

1. Aymeric was wrong. It is clear Nidhogg would not rest until all of Ishgard's descendants was turned into dragons or burned. That was the whole things we had to journey to figure out, that trying to make peace was completely futile. He really was just a mad dog at that point.


2. You're forgetting (or haven't reached) the point where we end the war. It's all good, but our company is not satisfied because of the truth we uncovered.

So,

Heck, if the story never went "Turns out I'm actually EVIL" with the Archbishop, we probably would've gone on our merry way wiping out hands clean of the whole war with Ishgard never really seen too negatively. Keep in mind, the Holy See still lied to its people and lied about the history of the world and was totally fine with that. But... I'm sure most of Ishgard wouldn't have cared if the Holy See revealed the whole "Oh no Thordan totally killed the dragon out of a lust for power", why? Because it's not like Ishgardians are forgiving people with forgiveness for dragons and heretics in their hearts.

That's just not true. It was clear that such a truth would shatter the tenets of their society.

Aymeric tries to force the Holy See to admits the sins of the past, before the Archbishop goes rogue. He does this after Nidhogg is put down too, which means they could've left it alone but he didn't.

Iceheart was able to get the heretics out of Ishgard on her own. Showing they can surprise their hatred.

Aymeric apologizes to Midgardsormr and speaks for Ishgard that they will move forward past the crimes of their ancestors, to make Ishgard a place for both man and dragon.

Let's not forget, they let us in on dragon back and then proceed to bow to Midgardsormr.


The ones complicit in the actions of the past were those that covered the truth, i.e. the Archbishop and his 12.
It's true Aymeric may not speak for all Ishgardians, but faced with the truth it can be inferred that there room for change.

Before the Archbishop showed his primal cards, we had already prepared a coup.

If none of the Ascian-primal mess happened, we were still clearly ready to break Aymeric out and (this is stated in the planning) dethrone the current Holy See so that Ishgard would see the truth of its past.


It's really important to understand that all of the planning and revolution happened after Nidhogg was already dead and before the Holy See went rogue.
So yea, there was no complacency in our company.

[Ooshima]

I called the Archbishop being evil from day one. The only thing I was ever wrong about (besides having Nighog's and Hraysvelger's roles backwards, and never realised that the Dragoons Job Crystal wasn't Nidhogg's actual Eye) was that The Holy See wasn't in league with Garlemauld.

So the truth finally came out that Thorden VII was indeed the typical SE head priest that turns out to be the Dictator, Monarch, and all around shit pot stirrer not unlike Seymor Guado from FF10. So I'll personally be really happy after we lay waste to the current Ishgaurdian society sociaty by kicking the church out of power.

Though I've not cleared past lvl59 yet, yea I kinda see where our fight with Throden "I'm an Ascaian Stooge" VII is headed. And it wont end well for him.

The Archbishop screams Barthandelus from day one lol.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Is there any church related character in general that is ever a good guy? Methinks Square really really doesn't like priests...

[Theodric]

I wouldn't consider the Archbishop to be 'evil'. He was doing what he felt was necessary to protect his people - which is understandable given how much of a threat Nidhogg was and how future generations were being punished for something that happened long ago. He was misguided and needed to be dealt with, yes - but people have a habit of seeing morally grey situations in black or white.

[Frederick22]

I wouldn't consider the Archbishop to be 'evil'. He was doing what he felt was necessary to protect his people - which is understandable given how much of a threat Nidhogg was and how future generations were being punished for something that happened long ago. He was misguided and needed to be dealt with, yes - but people have a habit of seeing morally grey situations in black or white.

You kidding right?
Ending the war was not enought for him, he wanted to kill all dragons and who ever stand against him. He just didnt wanetd to rule on Ishgard, he wanted to rule over the hole world and start the 8th calamity LOL. He went super crasy, so yes EVIL

[Cilia]

snip

While the Holy See certainly isn't in the right for covering up history, as the Archbishop notes in an Echo flashback after you rescue Aymeric from the Vault they had no other real options. If they didn't instill patriotism in the Ishgardian citizens, Nidhogg would have easily burned Ishgard to the ground long ago (maybe; see below). Lying about history and painting themselves as heroes was certainly wrong, but in the face of annihilation what other option did they have?

Nidhogg's rage was (is) unending. Nothing, short of turning every Ishgardian, could possibly stop the attacks. He could have won the war, but chose not to just to make Ishgard suffer forever. "What happened an age ago seems as yesterday to them," so as far as the dragons are concerned it was yesterday Ishgard betrayed and killed Ratatoskr and maimed Nidhogg. Their perception of time is far different from ours, so even though Nidhogg claimed the lives of Thordan and half his Knights' lives, that's not enough. He just wants Ishgard to suffer until they all either become heretics and drink dragon's blood (thus becoming a dragon) or give in to despair and kill themselves. The Dragonsong War isn't a war to kill the Ishgardians, it's a war to break their spirit - and the fact Nidhogg could have won the war long ago if he so chose, but does not to prolong the Ishgardians' suffering makes him veer into unrepentant sadism.

The Holy See was in no way right for their betrayal of Ratatoskr and covering up the truth, but that was a millennium ago. The perpetrators of that sin are long dead. If the dragons were able to forgive the descendants of Thordan and his Knights, the war would not have carried on - but they're either unable or unwilling to realize this, or just flat out don't care. So (going by the Archbishop's title) they're punishing the seventh generation of Ishgardians since Thordan's betrayal. +95% of these people don't know why they're being attacked, just that they have to fight if they want to not die.

Was it right of Thordan and his Knights Twelve to betray Ratatoskr, consume her essence, maim Nidhogg when he came to collect, and then paint themselves as the heroes? Certainly not.

But neither is it right of Nidhogg to carry out an eternal quest for vengeance on people who don't know why he's constantly terrorizing them, and fight only for their right to live.