Estinien (spoilers)

[Samcaesar]

God. I really hate how I just lost so much post due to an error with these forums.. I'd reply to you all independently, but going through that hassle was done once and lost.


I still feel like you guys are letting off the entire system of Ishgard and the Holy See off the hook. Heck, if the story never went "Turns out I'm actually EVIL" with the Archbishop, we probably would've gone on our merry way wiping out hands clean of the whole war with Ishgard never really seen too negatively. Keep in mind, the Holy See still lied to its people and lied about the history of the world and was totally fine with that. But... I'm sure most of Ishgard wouldn't have cared if the Holy See revealed the whole "Oh no Thordan totally killed the dragon out of a lust for power", why? Because it's not like Ishgardians are forgiving people with forgiveness for dragons and heretics in their hearts. For a 1000 years they've hated dragon kind (And anything that looks like a dragon) and are probably far to complacent to actually own up to the faults of Ishgard. There's plenty of ways to reason that an Ishgardian could come to the conclusion "Killing a great wyrm, even for power, is reasonable", such as "Well, look what happened with Nidhogg! Imagine if we didn't have both his eyes to defend ourselves!". This war has been a cycle of revenge killings for its entirety. Thordan killed Rhatotskar, so Nidhogg killed Thordan, which lead Thordan's son to pry Nidhogg's eyes from his head, which lead Nidhogg to condemn Ishgard, which leads to the constant back and forth of Ishgard killing dragon-kin (and anything looking like a dragon) and Nidhogg and his brood killing Ishgardians.

Don't act like this isn't a war for Ishgard where they raised men to hate dragons and heretics for just. Nidhogg, even if he does just use them for pawns, at least gave Ishgardians a way to redeem themselves. I mean shoot, what's Nidhogg going to do if all of Ishgard decided "Yeah, you know! Screw this place, our ancestors did some awful stuff and I don't want any association to it"? He looses the target of his rage then. Heck even Aymeric admits that with Ishgard gone Nidhogg would've just slithered back and probably not cared any more. So he's not some "Mad dog waiting to be put down", even with time perception BS, all of the problems that caused the war to begin are still there, and I don't mean Nidhogg himself. Plus, you guys gotta realize, these are nigh immortal beings, a death to them is far more significant than the death of any race of man, you'd be pretty enraged too if you and your sibling lived for thousands of years in peace only for some guy to kill your sister (Especially considering the reasons). Likewise, and this is something Estinien admits himself, Estinien is just as rage filled as Nidhogg is, and I doubt he's alone in that feeling. We can't begin to blame the dragons for their emotions, especially whenever the other side is just as emotional and hateful. Like, there's plenty of things to suggest Ishgard doesn't care just about "Nidhogg and his brood and trying to survive" but cares more for the killing of all dragons ( and mostly anyone that doesn't agree with them). So why aren't we calling for an entire disruption of Ishgard and holding them all accountable for the sins they've committed in their life? The hunting down of dragons (And things that vaguely look draconic), the persecution of heretics (and "heretics"), the issues with the lower class in Ishgard (And their bizarrely determined class system anyways). Those first two things even Hauchefant (Bless him) and Aymeric were still fine with, mind you, and they're suppose to be the Ishgardians we relate to. The Ishgardians still hold onto the eyes, act like they're just trying to "survive" (Hint, making heretics jump into ravines and slaughtering the Au Ra and Leafy Sea dragons is far from "survival"), and don't even bother to say "Well, turns out Thordan was the attacker and you guys are all technically descendants of the Knights Twelve" (Not like the last one would matter too much imho). Their ancestors may be long dead, but the sins they committed were still being upheld and supported.

Also it would seem the attacks on Ishgard proper were relatively a new thing due mainly to those magical wards Iceheart destroyed in 2.55, especially within the lifespan of Estinien, who tells you he's been able to lure Nidhogg away from Ishgard only up until recently, which was the attack on Ishgard proper right before we get there. Another thing to note, the Dragonsong doesn't make you a slave to Nidhogg if you're a dragon, otherwise Midgardsormr or Hraesvelgr would've easily been able to stop it, it really seems to be more of a call to arms that dragons can either ignore or begin to join in as well. So any idea that "Drinking Dragon's blood and awakening Rhatotskar's essence makes you a slave to Nidhogg!" isn't confirmed, they're pawns of Nidhogg by their own will until otherwise proven. And as a side personal note, I really hope Estinien-Nidhogg end up balancing each other out, allowing Nidhogg to see all the suffering he's caused thanks to Estinien, last thing I want to do after this whole shebang is kill more things.

Honestly this is also the beauty of this story, the comparison that it continues to push with those of us who we ally with and our enemies. Just as in 2.0 the Garleans and the Eorzean states mirrored each other (The suppression of the eikons/primals primarily along with plenty of other elements), 3.0 shows Ishgard and Nidhogg's brood, both groups consumed with contempt for the other, both determined to wipe the other one out for things that occurred in the past. Though, while we begin to address Ishgard's problems (Such as the whole awkward class system) it's only a step in the right direction, we've yet to deal with Eorzea's problems as well. This issue somewhat reminds me of the thread we had about the relic weapons, in which we kill thousands of beastmen for, and yet we're rewarded for it with a glowing weapon, you'll have to wonder if these sorts of things will ever actually be addressed though.

[Ayuhra]

I don't have an in depth response to this.

I was more sad at the deaths of Ysayle and Haurchefant (though I had a suspicion his days were numbered, likeable characters just don't make it in these games) than I was at the turning of Estinien. Then again, the turning of Estinien is just the beginning of a new story

I did find it amusing how, after consuming Estinien, Nidhogg just looks at you like "'Sup" and flies away.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

1. Aymeric was wrong. It is clear Nidhogg would not rest until all of Ishgard's descendants was turned into dragons or burned. That was the whole things we had to journey to figure out, that trying to make peace was completely futile. He really was just a mad dog at that point.


2. You're forgetting (or haven't reached) the point where we end the war. It's all good, but our company is not satisfied because of the truth we uncovered.

So,

Heck, if the story never went "Turns out I'm actually EVIL" with the Archbishop, we probably would've gone on our merry way wiping out hands clean of the whole war with Ishgard never really seen too negatively. Keep in mind, the Holy See still lied to its people and lied about the history of the world and was totally fine with that. But... I'm sure most of Ishgard wouldn't have cared if the Holy See revealed the whole "Oh no Thordan totally killed the dragon out of a lust for power", why? Because it's not like Ishgardians are forgiving people with forgiveness for dragons and heretics in their hearts.

That's just not true. It was clear that such a truth would shatter the tenets of their society.

Aymeric tries to force the Holy See to admits the sins of the past, before the Archbishop goes rogue. He does this after Nidhogg is put down too, which means they could've left it alone but he didn't.

Iceheart was able to get the heretics out of Ishgard on her own. Showing they can surprise their hatred.

Aymeric apologizes to Midgardsormr and speaks for Ishgard that they will move forward past the crimes of their ancestors, to make Ishgard a place for both man and dragon.

Let's not forget, they let us in on dragon back and then proceed to bow to Midgardsormr.


The ones complicit in the actions of the past were those that covered the truth, i.e. the Archbishop and his 12.
It's true Aymeric may not speak for all Ishgardians, but faced with the truth it can be inferred that there room for change.

Before the Archbishop showed his primal cards, we had already prepared a coup.

If none of the Ascian-primal mess happened, we were still clearly ready to break Aymeric out and (this is stated in the planning) dethrone the current Holy See so that Ishgard would see the truth of its past.


It's really important to understand that all of the planning and revolution happened after Nidhogg was already dead and before the Holy See went rogue.
So yea, there was no complacency in our company.

[Cilia]

snip

While the Holy See certainly isn't in the right for covering up history, as the Archbishop notes in an Echo flashback after you rescue Aymeric from the Vault they had no other real options. If they didn't instill patriotism in the Ishgardian citizens, Nidhogg would have easily burned Ishgard to the ground long ago (maybe; see below). Lying about history and painting themselves as heroes was certainly wrong, but in the face of annihilation what other option did they have?

Nidhogg's rage was (is) unending. Nothing, short of turning every Ishgardian, could possibly stop the attacks. He could have won the war, but chose not to just to make Ishgard suffer forever. "What happened an age ago seems as yesterday to them," so as far as the dragons are concerned it was yesterday Ishgard betrayed and killed Ratatoskr and maimed Nidhogg. Their perception of time is far different from ours, so even though Nidhogg claimed the lives of Thordan and half his Knights' lives, that's not enough. He just wants Ishgard to suffer until they all either become heretics and drink dragon's blood (thus becoming a dragon) or give in to despair and kill themselves. The Dragonsong War isn't a war to kill the Ishgardians, it's a war to break their spirit - and the fact Nidhogg could have won the war long ago if he so chose, but does not to prolong the Ishgardians' suffering makes him veer into unrepentant sadism.

The Holy See was in no way right for their betrayal of Ratatoskr and covering up the truth, but that was a millennium ago. The perpetrators of that sin are long dead. If the dragons were able to forgive the descendants of Thordan and his Knights, the war would not have carried on - but they're either unable or unwilling to realize this, or just flat out don't care. So (going by the Archbishop's title) they're punishing the seventh generation of Ishgardians since Thordan's betrayal. +95% of these people don't know why they're being attacked, just that they have to fight if they want to not die.

Was it right of Thordan and his Knights Twelve to betray Ratatoskr, consume her essence, maim Nidhogg when he came to collect, and then paint themselves as the heroes? Certainly not.

But neither is it right of Nidhogg to carry out an eternal quest for vengeance on people who don't know why he's constantly terrorizing them, and fight only for their right to live.

[Dalvy]

actually, about Nidhogg needing to be put down... Even neutral Midgardsormr lamented that his son was lost to his rage. Nidhogg lost his senses centuries ago, and the only hope midgy has of seeing his boy regain his senses is if Estinien fights for control.

Also disappointed that we fell into the typical Japanese plot of "organized church is evil". I was holding out for the pope being decent, knowing about the Ascian plans. The fact that his group was able to trick Lahabrea and Igeyorhm at all says something.

[Allyrion]

Also disappointed that we fell into the typical Japanese plot of "organized church is evil". I was holding out for the pope being decent, knowing about the Ascian plans. The fact that his group was able to trick Lahabrea and Igeyorhm at all says something.

I was glad to see that FF trope.
But moreover, I was ready to be disappointed because I thought he would try to play the Ascians but get outplayed himself.

That didn't happen. He actually did turn the tables.
Made him a worthy enemy.

It was very well done.
I never expected to be happy the Archbishop showed up and also wanting to put him down in equal measures.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I was glad to see that FF trope.
But moreover, I was ready to be disappointed because I thought he would try to play the Ascians but get outplayed himself.

That didn't happen. He actually did turn the tables.
Made him a worthy enemy.

It was very well done.
I never expected to be happy the Archbishop showed up and also wanting to put him down in equal measures.

What kept "The Knights of the Round" from being a worth enemy is that my all 1st timer group PWNed them in like 5 minutes. THAT was anti climactic. At least when I did Ultima with all new 50s fresh into our AF gear it was still mildly challenging. Here's hoping there a Yoshi <Clears throat> I mean wandering Minstrel quest later that makes it a real challenge.

Was kinda shocked to see Lahabrea go down like that though. Was almost certain he'd like, possess Thordin or something after he was consumed.

As for Nidhogg, I think Midguardsormir's lamentation over his madness proves just how desperately he needs to be put down for good. Only this time we need to aim for his Heart instead of his Eyes.

[saber_alter]

As for Nidhogg, I think Midguardsormir's lamentation over his madness proves just how desperately he needs to be put down for good. Only this time we need to aim for his Heart instead of his Eyes.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that, though i have little doubt it will. might even take the remaining members of Midgarsormer's children to bring him down now Nidhogg is at full strength.

[Duelle]

actually, about Nidhogg needing to be put down... Even neutral Midgardsormr lamented that his son was lost to his rage. Nidhogg lost his senses centuries ago, and the only hope midgy has of seeing his boy regain his senses is if Estinien fights for control.

This would be an interesting plot turn. Nidhogg being stopped by your efforts and Estinien's attempt to regain control. Would be even better if we somehow managed to save him.

I actually liked Estinien, even if he's a little too set in his ways. Now if Iceheart's ghost/spirit/echo had something to do with saving Estinien, this would draw a nice parallel to the whole Hraesvelgr and Shiva thing.